Infloor cleaning system, troubleshooting tips and maintenance desired

[jonpcar]

So now we know...those "relief" SDX drains are simply plumbed in parallel to the main drain. Luckily, they seem to be plumbed so that there is minimal water going through, unless of course there is a blockage of the main drain that occurs during entrapment.

This is consistent with my experience as I have played with valves and why I am such a "hardliner" with statements about 100% valve flow turned this way or that for suction/return. Water seems to be much more finicky than electricity, and it doesn't flow in the amounts you would intuitively expect, at least not to me.

 

[Dodger]

When I’ve used dye for this kind of test, I submerge the dropper so that I can squeeze it right in front of the drain cover on the wall.

I have the little plastic squeeze bottle type of food coloring. After a slight squeeze, I don’t release the squeeze completely until I pull it out of the water, so that it doesn’t backfill with too much pool water and dilute the dye. Obviously, I dedicated a bottle to the pool. It sits in my test kit with all the reagents.

 

[Dodger]

*meaning my shaky hand accidentally placed a drop near the wall and I was lucky to see the result.

You may want to do the test before that cocktail beverage!!

 

[jonpcar]

Since we have many of the IFCS folks in here, some watching, I thought I would post this example graph of PSI in my system. All pools with IFCSs will have a similar profile when running their cleaning system. We many times ask people to give us their PSI when debugging an IFCS problem, and the "maximum value" of the manifold pressure (my green line) is usually what we are looking for.

You will notice the manifold pressure dips regularly...this is because as the distributor rotates to the next zone, temporarily two zones' popups are "active". The water has an easier path back to the pool, and so PSI drops. When the rotator has completed its move to the next zone, only one set of popups is active and the PSI goes back up...the higher PSI causes water to "shoot further" out of the jets to sweep your pool floor. Each of those plateaus represent a particular zone of my IFCS.

I have a 6-valve manifold, but you will notice that I only have 5 plateaus per period and that one of my plateaus is roughly twice as long. That is because they tied two of my distributor valves together and they happen to be right next to each other. So the same zone is activated two times in a row...and without the popups rotating. By the way, that sucks for me and I was really irritated when I realized they had done this...last year...after I had had [is that right: had had??] the pool for 25 years, haha. I AM going to dig that up someday and change it!



@Dodger talks occasionally about changing out popup heads to equalize the pressure to all zones. For instance, my "double zone" has slightly higher pressure than all my other zones. I could replace one of its heads with a "larger hole" popup which might be useful if that new popup is located next to a problem area that doesn't get swept properly. This would only work for those IFCSs that have replacement popups with different size holes (different outputs).

For those that have an option, and based on the information that I have gathered, you should always run your manifold distributor as fast as you can. Go through the zones and repeat as quickly as possible. Not all IFCSs have that option.

The four lines on this particular graph are :
red (top) = pool pump pressure-side PSI gauge
yellow = filter PSI
green = IFCS PSI gauge
orange (bottom) = pool pump vacuum-side PSI gauge

-----------NOTE: I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT MY AUTOMATION PROJECT ON THIS THREAD---------------

This graph was generated by my in-progress automation project. But I DON'T want to hijack this thread to talk about that. There are very few threads like this where IFCS users can find useful information about their systems, and I think more are needed. So, in order to head off any conversation about my automation project, I have started a thread which I will try to start updating soon.

My NEW Pool Automation Controller

This is a work in progress…I will be updating this first post with some of my latest progress. Normally, I post projects after I have completed 90% of it. This is not the case with this automation project. This thread will be kind of like a pool-build thread, with updates when I get the...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Bama Rambler]

That's an interesting graph and is exactly what I'd expect to see.
That should be a great help in helping someone troubleshoot their system. We can show hem exactly what to look for.

 

[IaMac]

I cleaned the filter cartridges earlier today in anticipation of getting data such as the above. Mine will be, by necessity, more sparse as it'll be collected manually but I'll see what I can do later in the day.

 

[jonpcar]

I cleaned the filter cartridges earlier today in anticipation of getting data such as the above. Mine will be, by necessity, more sparse as it'll be collected manually but I'll see what I can do later in the day.

Mac, you don't really need all that data. There is information there and I have a plan for mine, but probably key for you is to simply record the max PSI seen for each zone. The lows aren't really good for anything that I can think of. Also record your filter pressures when you hit your max PSI for each zone.

I said that the (green line) individual manifold psi graph is pretty typical. BUT, if you are returning water through the IFCS and there is not a lot between it and the filter, I would expect the graphs for the IFCS and filter to be much closer to one another.

But you have a heater (with no bypass) between the IFCS and filter, so I would expect you to see the heater's impact on your PSI by comparing the max numbers (peak simultaneous pressures) on the filter AND the IFCS. So record both. Also, you should run this experiment on the higher RPM ranges where you run your IFCS.

Are these assumptions correct @Dodger (he just put in his heater bypass last year) or others?

 

[Dodger]

That's a really nice graph, Jon. I've always imagined the data looking like that, but didn't have the tools to log it.

I would definitely log pressures at higher speeds on the pump, since the psi resolution gets so much worse on the low side. And yes, record both peak filter psi and the corresponding peak IFCS valve psi (or at whatever secondary pressure gauge you have near the IFCS.) Record those for every zone, as zones are not necessarily created equal.

Those 2 pressures should track together and give you an idea of head loss. I found head loss to be proportional to the psi, so higher head loss at higher filter psi (e.g. my spa zone), which seems logical.

 

[jonpcar]

That's an interesting graph and is exactly what I'd expect to see.

Yes...and a picture, as in this case, definitely is worth at least 100 words of explanation.

That's a really nice graph, Jon. I've always imagined the data looking like that, but didn't have the tools to log it.

This was my first hookup/data log of my system to the PSI gauges I installed )...I was surprised at the clarity it gives. Unlike you, even with all the data I taken on my system, I had never actually taken the time to look at individual max pressures of my zones. And immediately wheels started turning in my head...

In any case, I think it is helpful for those learning about their IFCS to see the type of output that they can expect on those PSI gauges.

AND, to top it off...there is no where near this much PSI excitement in pools without IFCS, haha.

 

[IaMac]

I recorded, via Bic pen, the following pressure measurements at the filter and manifold/valve/diverter with the pump running at 3450 RPM.

state1 (2 pop-ups active), 22 psi filter, 12.5 psi manifold
state2 (2 pop-ups active), 22 psi filter, 12.5 psi manifold
state3 (2 pop-ups active), 22 psi filter, 12.5 psi manifold
state4 (3 pop-ups active), 20.5 psi filter, 10 psi manifold
state5 (2 wall jets active), 22 psi filter, 12+ psi manifold
state6 (3 wall jets active), 22 psi filter, 11+ psi manifold
Inbetween states,18 psi filter, 3 psi manifold

Keep in mind these are off of uncalibrated analog gauges. I noted that each state was fully on for about 34 secs, overlapped the next state for maybe 8 secs and took half a second to transition from one pressure to the next.

At 2400 RPM the pop-ups were still popping up but at a much reduced rate (as would be expected). I didn't see any pressure variations but given the looong period and persistent mosquitoes I chickened out. I did note a filter pressure of 10 psi and a manifold pressure of maybe 2 psi in state1. Kind of amazing the valve/manifold/timer kept cycling!

Lastly and for no good reason I note that the three speeds and times presently set for the pump are:
Speed1 = 3450 RPM, uses 2000 W, runs for 4 hours
Speed1 = 2400 RPM, uses 674 W, runs for 10 hours
Speed1 = 2000 RPM, uses 405 W, runs for 10 hours

Once I get a handle on the SWG settings and timings, the above will likely change.

 

[jonpcar]

Others that have done the heater bypass can chime in here (I don’t have one), but that heater (most likely culprit, or possibly still semi-blocked filter) seems to be introducing a LOT of pressure loss to your manifold...no wonder your popups are operating right on the edge...I think much worse than Dodger’s numbers. Did you ever post a picture of your entire pad area, I went back to look for how that is all plumbed but couldn’t find it.

Does anyone know if filter gauges are normally on the (input) pump side or output side of the filter cartridges? I would imagine the input side.

Just one check to make sure, because I don’t know if anybody mentioned this...during all the measurements that special valve to your step was closed right? All flow was being sent to the popups via that 3-way?

 

[IaMac]

Aaahh Crud, that 3 way was ever so slightly opened to allow flow to the single jet by the shallow side stairs, thus those pressure reading represent what will be real working conditions, at least until such a time as the valves become automated.

I do have a whole pad pic on my phone, I'll add it to this post in a bit.

As to filter pressure, I'm sure it's on the pump, input side. The pressure relief valve, with the gauge, sits on the dome top which is suspended on a spring above the sealed cartridges and bypass tube. Water enters the filter dome, fills it and exits through the outer periphery of the filter or bypass tube. Water from both those sources is collected by a manifold (that the filters sit on), which is connected to the output of the filter. So the head loss seen in my numbers also includes loss through the filters. Alternatively ... you can see it that when the filters are clogged, which reduces flow, meaning more pressure loss across the filter and less from the pump to the filter input, resulting in an indicated filter pressure rise at the filter gauge (that is now closer to the pump outlet pressure).

 

[jonpcar]

Sorry about that...I actually run my IFCS with (essentially) that same valve open slightly for a different reason. But it will impact those PSI measurements quite a bit. I would just re-run a couple if I were you. IMO the previous data didn't show significant difference in the max pressures of the various zones...unless you (eventually) track down that one (10psi) zone to a problem area on your pool. Then it might deserve a second look.

 

[proavia]

I wonder if that low quality check valve right before the SWG might be causing reduced flow.... those are more failure prone than the Jandy check valves..... and it really does NOT need to be there to protect the heater - it's a hold over from inline puck chlorinators.

If/when you install a heater bypass, you should do away with any check valve in that particular location. One usually does need to be installed after the heater outlet and befoe the tee that connects to the bypass pipe - but use a high quality check valve like the Jandy unit.

I think using a heater bypass and doing away with that existing check valve will greatly improve your infloor performance - and also allow you to run the pump at lower rpms.

 

[jonpcar]

As to filter pressure, I'm sure it's on the pump, input side.

Yeah you are right. I actually have your same Hayward cartridge filter, I usually clean it about every 8 months (but with my new psi data logging I will be able to know for sure, haha). There should be very little PSI loss through it, except when it is dirty.

 

[jonpcar]

I wonder if that low quality check valve right before the SWG might be causing reduced flow.... those are more failure prone than the Jandy check valves..... and it really does NOT need to be there to protect the heater - it's a hold over from inline puck chlorinators.

Good call. In addition to not having a heater, I don't have a chlorinator either. Do they introduce any significant head-loss? I think I have seen this answered "no" before but not positive. But, I'm always suspicious of anything in the path before the manifold, haha.

I think using a heater bypass and doing away with that existing check valve will greatly improve your infloor performance - and also allow you to run the pump at lower rpms.

Gene, agree about the check valve but note that I consider my IFCS system to be one BIG check valve. On my system, even low speed skimming that is returned back through the popups is significantly less efficient than low speed skimming returned back through the unimpeded wall returns (like Mac's step jet). Not certain that all IFCSs are impacted as much as mine is, but I wouldn't doubt it. That's one reason I think it's so important to flop suction valves (drain/skimmer) AND return valves (popups/wall returns) when changing from pop-up cleaning (high rpm) to skimming/chlorinating (low rpm)...and why I am convinced that automation is required to take full advantage for efficiency AND effectiveness. But there I go again...haha.

By the way, I suspect my pool is very similar to yours, was yours built by Shasta?

 

[proavia]

Good call. In addition to not having a heater, I don't have a chlorinator either. Do they introduce any significant head-loss? I think I have seen this answered "no" before but not positive. But, I'm always suspicious of anything in the path before the manifold, haha.

I don't know if an inline chlorinator introduces any significant head loss. I have an A&A Deck Chlor - in which an adjustable flow of water enters the bottom, fills the vessel and exit thru a standpipe into the pool. It's an open air system - A&A Deck Chlor. I have it set to always allow water flow thru it, but only use pucks for vacation time.

Many heater manufacturers recommend/require a check valve between the heater and chlorinator - any type of chlorinator. I believe this is because a puck type chlorinator will allow backflow of highly acidic water into the heater. As we know, a SWG - if wired correctly - does not produce chlorine when the pump is off and there is no chance of acidic backflow into the heater. The check valve recommendation/requirement even for SWG is a holdover from the puck chlorinators.

Gene, agree about the check valve but note that I consider my IFCS system to be one BIG check valve. On my system, even low speed skimming that is returned back through the popups is significantly less efficient than low speed skimming returned back through the unimpeded wall returns (like Mac's step jet). I don't know if all IFCSs are like that but I believe they would be. That's one reason I think it's so important to flop suction valves (drain/skimmer) AND return valves (popups/wall returns) when changing from pop-up cleaning (high rpm) to skimming/chlorinating (low rpm)...and why I am convinced that automation is required to take full advantage of potential power savings. But there I go again...haha.

By the way, I suspect my pool is very similar to yours, was yours built by Shasta?

The infloor system does create back pressure when water is flowing into it. The higher the pump rpm, the higher the effective back pressure. My low speed skimming is at 1200 rpm and water flows thru the infloor - there is very little back pressure - 2 psi at the filter. My cleaning cycle is at 2900 rpm - 17-18 psi at the filter. I leave it on infloor most of the time - although I can change it to separate returns.

I'm sure the pools are similar - Presidential built mine. A&A supplied infloor for Shasta, with Shasta's name on the pop-ups. I can only assume that A&A did the infloor placement design work for both builders.

 

[jonpcar]

Gene, 2psi back pressure is exactly what I get when running my IFCS at low RPM too, although numbers and accuracy are tougher at those low values. But just considering the PSI number is deceptive. Here are my measured numbers...I have a FlowVis on my system for GPM measurements.

mPSI = manifold PSI
fPSI = filter PSI

This was a HUGE game changer for the effectiveness of my IFCS, especially since (about the same time) I learned about pool swirl: using the wall jets to get pool water and surface debris to rotate around pool to be captured by skimmer. So, by simply changing the RETURN valve from IFCS to wall returns, I get three times the volume of filtered water/swirling/skimming for the same cost. This is one of the reasons I am running my low RPM skimming for much longer times...almost free skimming, free filtering...less "stuff" makes it to the bottom of the pool for the IFCS to clean up.

	RPM	GPM	Watts	mPSI	fPSI	Energy Factor
Returns through Popups	1207	11	140​	2​	2​	4.7​
Returns through Popups	1035	9	136​	2​	2​	4​
Returns through Wall Returns	1207	35	161​	0​	0​	13​
Returns through Wall Returns	1035	28	136​	0​	0​	12.3​

These were numbers from my analog gauges, I haven't revisited since I have installed the digital ones...but my digital system is only "UP" when I am testing. Currently, it is DOWN (back on my desk).

 

[proavia]

Using the wall returns does provide better skimming than using the infloor - especially at lower rpm. For the most part, I get adequate skimming at low rpm with the return flow thru the infloor. I'm just too lazy to continuously switch between wall returns and infloor. I increased low speed from 1000 to 1200 to increase skimmer action this year. There is a 1 psi difference in filter pressure between infloor pop up returns and wall returns on my mechanical glycerin filled pressure gauge. I haven't checked the watts difference lately, but I think it's a bit lower than yours at about the same rpms. I'd guess this is do to plumbing configuration and different filter types - we have the same pump.

 

[IaMac]

I repeated the test I did previously but with all water returned via the manifold/valve. The numbers are a bit higher and there is one correction to note. The overlap/in-between low number was incorrect above. The gauge starts at 3 psi, not zero. The readings with the test case requested are:
state1 (2 pop-ups), 26 psi filter, 17 psi manifod
state2 (2 pop-ups), 26 psi filter, 17 psi manifold
state3 (2 pop-ups), 26 psi filter, 17 psi manifold
state4 (3 pop-ups), 23.5 psi filter, 13.5 psi manifold
state5 (2 wall jets), 26 psi filter, 17 psi manifold
state6 (3 wall jets), 25 psi filter, 15.5 psi manifold
Overlap states,18.5 psi filter, 8 psi manifold

All again at top RPM. I noted that the timing did not change much, if at all. It was still 30 secs at any max pressure and 10 secs of overlap.

I measured the lengths of the plumbing from pump to manifold and can make a crude drawing if desired. But short of adding the recommended heater bypass, that is not likely to change much.

It would be nice to run the pump slower and/or for shorter times but that's a cost/benefit question. How much gets spent upfront to be paid back in X years. I do have to run the pump for some minimum amount of time at some ?? speed just to chlorinate and skim. My main beef with the IFCS right now is that the main drain doesn't seem to suck enough.

ETA: I don't know who made the check valve, I assume it's Pentair like the rest of the equipment. Here's a pic if that helps.