Rising PH in Henderson NV

[vegas-doug]

I have a roughly 16,000 gallon pool with a raised infinity edge spa and in-floor system. The pool was completed 2 months ago and has pebble sheen plaster. It seems my ph is rising rapidly all the time. I have to add a quart or so every day or two of acid. Wondering if the spa or in-floor system is aerating the water causing a rise in ph daily. CYA and chlorine levels are good.

Does adding that much acid regularly seem normal?

In Henderson NV so weather is 80's to 90's the past few weeks.

Thanks,
Doug

 

[triptyx]

New pool plaster creates acidity as part of its curing process. It's very normal for a new plaster pool to have rapidly rising pH for the first year or so. Measure pH daily and add MA as needed to keep your pH between 7.2 and 8.0 (or whatever range the installer has recommended for your warranty).

That said, if you're running the spa jets, your water returns are riffling the surface, and/or other water features or a Kreepy cleaner hose are roughing up the water, that will also put an upwards pressure on your pH. A higher TA (Total Alkalinity above 80 or so) will also allow the pH to rise faster. You'll be adding a lot of acid which will naturally depress the TA - keep an eye on that to ensure it doesn't drop below 50.

 

[vegas-doug]

New pool plaster creates acidity as part of its curing process. It's very normal for a new plaster pool to have rapidly rising pH for the first year or so. Measure pH daily and add MA as needed to keep your pH between 7.2 and 8.0 (or whatever range the installer has recommended for your warranty).

That said, if you're running the spa jets, your water returns are riffling the surface, and/or other water features or a Kreepy cleaner hose are roughing up the water, that will also put an upwards pressure on your pH. A higher TA (Total Alkalinity above 80 or so) will also allow the pH to rise faster. You'll be adding a lot of acid which will naturally depress the TA - keep an eye on that to ensure it doesn't drop below 50.

Ok, thank you for the information. Will keep an eye on it.

Doug

 

[triptyx]

No worries. No question is a bad one, if you have any other concerns or need info let us know!

 

[dfattfp]

sounds about right, with the salt system, I got tired of it and bought the unit to auto feed the acid (since I got rid of salt, it's sitting there like a brick as the unit won't pump automatically without intellichlor installed). With fresh water, and the spa on about 5 min per day, I still have to add acid at least once a week, sometimes two. It may have to do with our water?

 

[mknauss]

LVVWD water comes from the Colorado River. It has 130 ppm TA and 250 ppm CH with a pH of about 8. So you will always needs to add acid on a regular basis as our evaporation is such that you are adding significant fill water each day. During April to October I add about 8 oz of acid twice a week for a 6000 gallon pool.

SWCG has very little to do with pH rise. It is the most reasonable method of chlorinating in our climate. Unless you are able to be home EVERY day to add liquid chlorine.

Please add a signature so we know what equipment you have. It is easier for us to provide guidance.

Take care.

 

[scdaren]

I have a roughly 16,000 gallon pool with a raised infinity edge spa and in-floor system. The pool was completed 2 months ago and has pebble sheen plaster. It seems my ph is rising rapidly all the time. I have to add a quart or so every day or two of acid. Wondering if the spa or in-floor system is aerating the water causing a rise in ph daily. CYA and chlorine levels are good.

Does adding that much acid regularly seem normal?

In Henderson NV so weather is 80's to 90's the past few weeks.

Thanks,
Doug

We had a Pebble Tec / Pebble Fina pool completed in April, similar size pool. That sounds about like what my acid needs have been, using 14.5% muriatic acid. My need to add acid is just now starting to slow down a bit.

 

[korey]

After installing a SWG last august and having not to have ever add chlorine, I quickly tired of rising PH and constant handling of muriatic acid, I have since installed a peristaltic pump that runs for about 3 min a day, our pool is now maintenance free (chemicaly). Converting to salt was the best move we could have made, adding the acid pump was the icing on the cake, huge WAF as well as we never have to touch chemicals.

 

[spoonman]

I just started using a Stenner pump to start injecting acid too. I’ve had similar issues with pH rise, despite lowering my TA. I’m in Phoenix and have similarly poor fill water and concerns about keeping pH balance to avoid waterline scale.

Has only taken me a couple days to get the dosing correct for the acid injection. I no longer have to manually add acid and don’t see my pH trying to jump into the 8’s anymore. My pH is now fixed around 7.5.

If you want to go this route, get something like a Stenner Econ T that pumps around 5-10 gpd. Tanks can be bought separately or as part of a package. Econ T has a built in timer, so you just schedule it to run for the number of minutes required for your intended dose. You just plug in the Stenner to 120/220 and attach the tube to pool piping as the last item in the return (or before SWG). You can insert a Tee fitting or simply thread a hole and insert the tube. Fill tank with acid. Many say to dilute. I buy 31% and dilute in half (15%). Just make sure you add acid to water, not water to acid.

I wished I added acid injection sooner and am now glad I did.

 

[vegas-doug]

Anyone have any other recommendations for a peristaltic pump (preferably cheaper than the Stenner Econ T) for injecting acid as well as the tank?

I like the sound of not having to manually add acid every other day!!

Thank you!

 

[Dirk]

I love my Pentair IntellipH. It works well with, and requires, an Icxx IntelliChlor. They're not cheap, though. It's a good size. It shuts down the IC when it is injecting, so you don't have chlorine and acid mixing together (bad!). It has some safeguards built in so that it can't inject too much acid, and so that it can't inject acid when the pump isn't running. The tank is sealed with an o-ring so that it doesn't leak acid fumes that can corrode surrounding metal. And it has a vent system that allows you to add a small tube to extend the venting well away from your equipment or anything else metal. It also has an ingenious acid-filling setup: you open the lid, take off the cap of the acid jug, but leave on the seal, you up end the acid jug and slide it into the mouth of the tank (it's very large). As you lower the jug into the tank, it ends up on a spike that holds it up and pierces the jug's seal, allowing the acid to dump in. Easy and safe!

I've never owned, or even seen, a Stenner setup. But from what I've read here, they don't offer some or all of the niceties I just described. There are many Stenner users here, they can weigh in and confirm or deny that.

The two downsides of the IntellipH are (1) it cannot work stand-alone. It is dependent on the IntelliChlor being present and functioning. This is only a problem should you ever wish to abandon using an IC. This also means it won't dispense acid when the IC is down for the cold-water months. And (2) it doesn't report to the EasyTouch, and it isn't controlled by it. It has an independent controller, so any adjustments to it must be done at the equipment pad. Though the same is true of a Stenner system.

I've yet to live with an IpH through the winter. I'm not looking forward to losing both chlorine and acid automation next month. But their convenience the rest of the year far outweighs the alternatives! I've been told both chlorine and acid demand drop dramatically in the winter, so maybe it won't be so bad. I had to add a lot of acid last winter, but my pool surface was brand new. If it's just once or twice a week this winter, I'll be OK with that. If your SWG works all year where you live, so will your IpH.

 

[vegas-doug]

Awesome. Thanks for the information. I'm in my first few months so acid is still somewhere around a quart every other day.

I love my Pentair IntellipH. It works well with, and requires, an Icxx IntelliChlor. They're not cheap, though. It's a good size. It shuts down the IC when it is injecting, so you don't have chlorine and acid mixing together (bad!). It has some safeguards built in so that it can't inject too much acid, and so that it can't inject acid when the pump isn't running. The tank is sealed with an o-ring so that it doesn't leak acid fumes that can corrode surrounding metal. And it has a vent system that allows you to add a small tube to extend the venting well away from your equipment or anything else metal. It also has an ingenious acid-filling setup: you open the lid, take off the cap of the acid jug, but leave on the seal, you up end the acid jug and slide it into the mouth of the tank (it's very large). As you lower the jug into the tank, it ends up on a spike that holds it up and pierces the jug's seal, allowing the acid to dump in. Easy and safe!

I've never owned, or even seen, a Stenner setup. But from what I've read here, they don't offer some or all of the niceties I just described. There are many Stenner users here, they can weigh in and confirm or deny that.

The two downsides of the IntellipH are (1) it cannot work stand-alone. It is dependent on the IntelliChlor being present and functioning. This is only a problem should you ever wish to abandon using an IC. This also means it won't dispense acid when the IC is down for the cold-water months. And (2) it doesn't report to the EasyTouch, and it isn't controlled by it. It has an independent controller, so any adjustments to it must be done at the equipment pad. Though the same is true of a Stenner system.

I've yet to live with an IpH through the winter. I'm not looking forward to losing both chlorine and acid automation next month. But their convenience the rest of the year far outweighs the alternatives! I've been told both chlorine and acid demand drop dramatically in the winter, so maybe it won't be so bad. I had to add a lot of acid last winter, but my pool surface was brand new. If it's just once or twice a week this winter, I'll be OK with that. If your SWG works all year where you live, so will your IpH.

 

[mknauss]

The acid volume will reduce but not the demand due to the fill water.

Any chance you can add a pool volume to your signature?

 

[Dirk]

The acid volume will reduce but not the demand due to the fill water.

And this is what finalized my purchase decision. I was teetering for awhile, trying to decide to buy the IpH right away, or wait to see if the acid demand would eventually stop. But I have the same high-TA water as you, as Marty, and so I figured that even if my acid demand diminishes with time, it would never go away completely, which means adding acid would be an on-going chore forever. Now... it isn't!

Which would make any acid dosing gizmo purchase a good value now and in the future...

 

[vegas-doug]

The acid volume will reduce but not the demand due to the fill water.

Any chance you can add a pool volume to your signature?

--------------

Ok, did some calculating based on the drawing and I'm coming up with 4,224,481 cu in of volume which converts to a little over 18,000 gallons. Probably less as didn't take into account the slope going from 3-1/2 ft to 5 ft or back to 4 ft on the far end.

SPA TOP	145152	cu in
SPA BOTTOM	62208
Total Spa	207360	cu in
WET DECK	95424
STEPS	126048
BAR	1218621
DEEP	1822081
BENCH	32993
FAR END	711662
EXIT STEPS	10292
Total Pool	4017121	cu in
Total cu in	4224481	cu in
Total Gallons	18288	gallons

 

[Dirk]

Here's how you double-check your number, with either acid or chlorine. This is assuming you have one of the two TFP-recommended test kits.

You measure pH. You enter the pH test result and your new volume number into PoolMath and determine the amount of acid to add to correct your pH. You then add that amount of acid, with the pump running, of course, and let it mix in for 30-60 minutes or so. Then test the pH again. If the new result is the expected number, based on what Pool Math advised you to add, then your volume number is good. If your pH is lower or higher than it should be, then your volume number is suspect. Pool Math uses your TA test result to calculate pH (and borates, too, if you use any), so you want to have a relatively recent test result for that plugged in to PoolMath while you're doing this process.

You adjust your volume number accordingly, and repeat this process every time your pool needs acid, until your testing and dosing and retesting are reconciling correctly.

You can do the same thing with FC and chlorine, though after sunset, so you can eliminate the sun burning off chlorine from the process. You should also perform the CC test, and even a Overnight Chlorine Loss Test, to confirm there is nothing organic in your water consuming chlorine.

The trick is to retest as soon after dosing as you're sure the chemical is well mixed in with your water, to take what the pool is naturally consuming out of the equation. And no need to be fanatical about it, just record your testing and dosing and retesting for a while, each time your pool needs a chemical, and eventually you'll see a trend that will indicate how accurate your volume number is.

 

[vegas-doug]

Wondering why the IntelliPH won't work without the IntelliChlor? Is there a way around that?

Still considering my options (IntelliChem / IntelliPH / Stenner Pump). I would be good with the IntelliPH but not liking that it won't work without the IC60 cell installed, as I plan on pulling mine during the winter months.

I love my Pentair IntellipH. It works well with, and requires, an Icxx IntelliChlor. They're not cheap, though. It's a good size. It shuts down the IC when it is injecting, so you don't have chlorine and acid mixing together (bad!). It has some safeguards built in so that it can't inject too much acid, and so that it can't inject acid when the pump isn't running. The tank is sealed with an o-ring so that it doesn't leak acid fumes that can corrode surrounding metal. And it has a vent system that allows you to add a small tube to extend the venting well away from your equipment or anything else metal. It also has an ingenious acid-filling setup: you open the lid, take off the cap of the acid jug, but leave on the seal, you up end the acid jug and slide it into the mouth of the tank (it's very large). As you lower the jug into the tank, it ends up on a spike that holds it up and pierces the jug's seal, allowing the acid to dump in. Easy and safe!

I've never owned, or even seen, a Stenner setup. But from what I've read here, they don't offer some or all of the niceties I just described. There are many Stenner users here, they can weigh in and confirm or deny that.

The two downsides of the IntellipH are (1) it cannot work stand-alone. It is dependent on the IntelliChlor being present and functioning. This is only a problem should you ever wish to abandon using an IC. This also means it won't dispense acid when the IC is down for the cold-water months. And (2) it doesn't report to the EasyTouch, and it isn't controlled by it. It has an independent controller, so any adjustments to it must be done at the equipment pad. Though the same is true of a Stenner system.

I've yet to live with an IpH through the winter. I'm not looking forward to losing both chlorine and acid automation next month. But their convenience the rest of the year far outweighs the alternatives! I've been told both chlorine and acid demand drop dramatically in the winter, so maybe it won't be so bad. I had to add a lot of acid last winter, but my pool surface was brand new. If it's just once or twice a week this winter, I'll be OK with that. If your SWG works all year where you live, so will your IpH.

- - - Updated - - -

Will check my numbers with your recommendation. Thank you.

Here's how you double-check your number, with either acid or chlorine. This is assuming you have one of the two TFP-recommended test kits.

You measure pH. You enter the pH test result and your new volume number into PoolMath and determine the amount of acid to add to correct your pH. You then add that amount of acid, with the pump running, of course, and let it mix in for 30-60 minutes or so. Then test the pH again. If the new result is the expected number, based on what Pool Math advised you to add, then your volume number is good. If your pH is lower or higher than it should be, then your volume number is suspect. Pool Math uses your TA test result to calculate pH (and borates, too, if you use any), so you want to have a relatively recent test result for that plugged in to PoolMath while you're doing this process.

You adjust your volume number accordingly, and repeat this process every time your pool needs acid, until your testing and dosing and retesting are reconciling correctly.

You can do the same thing with FC and chlorine, though after sunset, so you can eliminate the sun burning off chlorine from the process. You should also perform the CC test, and even a Overnight Chlorine Loss Test, to confirm there is nothing organic in your water consuming chlorine.

The trick is to retest as soon after dosing as you're sure the chemical is well mixed in with your water, to take what the pool is naturally consuming out of the equation. And no need to be fanatical about it, just record your testing and dosing and retesting for a while, each time your pool needs a chemical, and eventually you'll see a trend that will indicate how accurate your volume number is.

 

[Dirk]

Wondering why the IntelliPH won't work without the IntelliChlor? Is there a way around that?

Still considering my options (IntelliChem / IntelliPH / Stenner Pump). I would be good with the IntelliPH but not liking that it won't work without the IC60 cell installed, as I plan on pulling mine during the winter months.

The IntelliChem is not well regarded here. I wouldn't use one if it was given to me. My IC/IpH combo is working really well in my pool, and so I don't need another very expensive piece of Pentair electronics to manage and replace. I've read the chlorine injection component of the system, which relies on ORP, doesn't work well (because ORP sensors don't work all that well). Something like that.

An IpH can be converted for use by an IntelliChem system, and IntelliChem can make use of an IC as well, so trying them together, without first buying the IntelliChem, wouldn't be the worst way to go. If they don't fit your need, you can always add the IntelliChem controller later, and not throw away too much dough (not more than $100 or so, I think, basically the cost of the IpH controller, as you can buy the IpH without one).

The IC plugs into the IpH, which then plugs into where the IC would plug into without an IpH. They daisy chain. The IpH controller is intercepting the IC data for water temp and flow. And the IpH comes with no standalone power supply, so it needs the IC power supple to even run. This symbiotic setup solves for a few things the Stenner users have to figure out on their own: namely how to keep the acid from injecting when the pump isn't running. I think they're using timers for that, and maybe some add flow switches too, but they have to rely on the Stenner timer never getting out of sync with the pump schedule (like from a breaker popping or power failure or digital timer failure). It's doable, but IMO not quite as failure proof as the Pentair gear.

I'm in a couple other threads here sorting out how to get an IntelliPH working without an IntelliChlor, or its transformer. But you have to abandon the IpH controller to do so, and set up some other type of timing mechanism. There are guys here who have figured it out, and are using the scheduling of their EasyTouch to inject acid using a modified IntelliPH. So it's possible.

If my cold weather doesn't reduce my pool's acid demand to a level I can deal with, then I'm going hybrid: I'll use the IC and IpH as designed, with the IpH controller, during the warmer months. And then when the IC can no longer produce in the winter, I'll run the IntelliPH using the method described above. I'm not there yet, but I'm following along with these various threads so I'll know now to do that if and when I want to.

There is another option, too, that I may try. I believe with the IC shut down for winter (not removed), the IpH can still dose manually. It has a button for that, like if you ever want to add a little acid but don't want to mess with its normal schedule. If that works as I think it does, I can just go out to the pad and press a button and the IpH will shoot a little acid into the pool. If that's enough to get my pool through the next day or two, that'll be better than having to handle the ol' jug and measuring cup...

I'll report on that in my IpH thread when I give it a try.

 

[vegas-doug]

I would be curious how to use the Easytouch to control the IpH indpendently. Can you provide links to the threads you mentioned so I can follow? Thank you!

Alternatively I would assume I could use the Easytouch to control a Stenner pump thru a relay, but would have to make sure scheduled when the pump is running.

The IntelliChem is not well regarded here. I wouldn't use one if it was given to me. My IC/IpH combo is working really well in my pool, and so I don't need another very expensive piece of Pentair electronics to manage and replace. I've read the chlorine injection component of the system, which relies on ORP, doesn't work well (because ORP sensors don't work all that well). Something like that.

An IpH can be converted for use by an IntelliChem system, and IntelliChem can make use of an IC as well, so trying them together, without first buying the IntelliChem, wouldn't be the worst way to go. If they don't fit your need, you can always add the IntelliChem controller later, and not throw away too much dough (not more than $100 or so, I think, basically the cost of the IpH controller, as you can buy the IpH without one).

The IC plugs into the IpH, which then plugs into where the IC would plug into without an IpH. They daisy chain. The IpH controller is intercepting the IC data for water temp and flow. And the IpH comes with no standalone power supply, so it needs the IC power supple to even run. This symbiotic setup solves for a few things the Stenner users have to figure out on their own: namely how to keep the acid from injecting when the pump isn't running. I think they're using timers for that, and maybe some add flow switches too, but they have to rely on the Stenner timer never getting out of sync with the pump schedule (like from a breaker popping or power failure or digital timer failure). It's doable, but IMO not quite as failure proof as the Pentair gear.

I'm in a couple other threads here sorting out how to get an IntelliPH working without an IntelliChlor, or its transformer. But you have to abandon the IpH controller to do so, and set up some other type of timing mechanism. There are guys here who have figured it out, and are using the scheduling of their EasyTouch to inject acid using a modified IntelliPH. So it's possible.

If my cold weather doesn't reduce my pool's acid demand to a level I can deal with, then I'm going hybrid: I'll use the IC and IpH as designed, with the IpH controller, during the warmer months. And then when the IC can no longer produce in the winter, I'll run the IntelliPH using the method described above. I'm not there yet, but I'm following along with these various threads so I'll know now to do that if and when I want to.

There is another option, too, that I may try. I believe with the IC shut down for winter (not removed), the IpH can still dose manually. It has a button for that, like if you ever want to add a little acid but don't want to mess with its normal schedule. If that works as I think it does, I can just go out to the pad and press a button and the IpH will shoot a little acid into the pool. If that's enough to get my pool through the next day or two, that'll be better than having to handle the ol' jug and measuring cup...

I'll report on that in my IpH thread when I give it a try.

 

[Dirk]

Get IntelliPH working without InteliChlor?
and
Looking at installing a new Stenner acid pump - have a few questions

Pentair sells the acid tank by itself, or the tank and the pump, or the tank and pump and controller. I write in one of those thread why I think the Pentair tank is superior to those being used by the Stenner crowd (based on how they describe them, or the pictures they share, again, I've never seen a Stenner setup for myself). But you can use a Stenner pump with the Pentair acid tank. Virtually all the combinations are possible, if you have a little DIY in ya.