Attached spa and water movement

Jun 18, 2018
51
Oceanside, CA
My pool has an attached spa with waterfall spillway. Until today, my pump schedule was:

8am-6:30pm, 1800rpm (filtration mode). Interspersed, I had 2.5 hours of "cleaning" mode from 8:30 - 11am at 2800rpm and I had the waterfall "active" from 5pm until 6:30pm at 2200rpm. When the "pool guy" set up the pool, he said he liked to only have the spillway running a brief time to slow down the buildup of calcium and salt deposits on the rock sides. SWG is set to 40-45%, so it runs the entire duration of the schedule but other than the one hour of spillway time, the chlorine was flowing into the pool only.

This week I discovered a "stealth" algae bloom - water looked clear during the day but when the light was on at night it looked fairly cloudy. CC was .5 or less (one drop "cleared" it using the 10ml mark measuring level of the Taylor k2006 kit). Because of the cloudiness, I started to slam.

A pool builder friend (did not build this pool) said that I should:

1. Filter at a much lower rpm, like 850-900rpm but up the duration to 12 or more hours per day. This will save electricity and provides all the water movement you need (I don't know if this will circulate the water 1+ times a day. I have a flow meter but haven't installed it yet).

2. Set the swg to 80ish % but because of the relatively low flow rate during filtration it will only actively produce chlorine during the cleaning mode (850rpm is too slow - swg gives low flow error).

3. Set the actuator on the spillway such that it returns mostly to the pool but also returns a little bit to the spa so it is always "trickling" over the edge - seriously, just a faint trickle. Water fall will pick up during the cleaning mode for higher turnover rate. The goal is to avoid dead water while filtering.

He said the algae bloom is possibly because of dead water in the spa and high heat (here in So Cal its been blistering the last couple weeks), which started a bloom and then spilled into the pool during the waterfall schedule. By keeping water always circulating through the spa, bringing in fresh/filtered/chlorinated water, I might avoid this problem.

His recommendations make sense, but I'm wondering people's thoughts. Do you tend to let spa water sit for most of the day or add a trickle? I'd like to save on electricity by lowering the speed of my pump for most of filtration but not at the expense of constantly fighting algae blooms.

EDIT: I understand that the rpms etc are rough estimates and I can monitor and fine tune as we go, but the main issue is about keeping a barely noticeable trickle on the spa important or silly? Is a longer filtration period at a slower rpm better than a shorter duration with higher rpm (and constant chlorine production vs only producing during "cleaning" mode)?

Thoughts? Recommendations?

TIA,

Fred
 
1. Filter at a much lower rpm, like 850-900rpm but up the duration to 12 or more hours per day. This will save electricity and provides all the water movement you need (I don't know if this will circulate the water 1+ times a day. I have a flow meter but haven't installed it yet).

The electricity savings between the pump running at 900 rpm vs. 1500 rpm is minimal. The electricity use is not linear. You save 90% of the electricity between 3600 rpm and 1600 rpm.

2. Set the swg to 80ish % but because of the relatively low flow rate during filtration it will only actively produce chlorine during the cleaning mode (850rpm is too slow - swg gives low flow error).

The flow switch is not to be used as the primary off/on switch. Having the SWG powered without adequate flow can cause hydrogen gas buildup and explosions in rare cases.

Run your pump at 1600 - 1800 rpm and your SWG active. Have your spa spillway have some constant flow. Keep good chlorinated water flowing in both spa and pool.

3. Set the actuator on the spillway such that it returns mostly to the pool but also returns a little bit to the spa so it is always "trickling" over the edge - seriously, just a faint trickle. Water fall will pick up during the cleaning mode for higher turnover rate. The goal is to avoid dead water while filtering.

This I agree with. You need more flow of chlorinated water through your spa during daylight hours.

He said the algae bloom is possibly because of dead water in the spa and high heat (here in So Cal its been blistering the last couple weeks), which started a bloom and then spilled into the pool during the waterfall schedule. By keeping water always circulating through the spa, bringing in fresh/filtered/chlorinated water, I might avoid this problem.

I agree. If you tested the FC in your spa late in the day it is probably very low.

Do you know what your CYA is and if your FC level is adequate according to [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

Post a set of your test results.

What model Intellichlor do your have? ICXX?
 
Good to have you asking questions on TFP Fred. My grandma use to live in Oceanside and I loved visiting there as a teen. If I remember correctly no matter how hot it got outside it always cooled down at night. Wish Texas dis that! Looks like Allen has you covered above...
 
I had the waterfall "active" from 5pm until 6:30pm at 2200rpm. When the "pool guy" set up the pool, he said he liked to only have the spillway running a brief time to slow down the buildup of calcium and salt deposits on the rock sides.

Quite a few TFPers only run their spillover 60-90 minutes per day and don't have algae problems. You could refine your previous schedule by splitting it into 2 sessions of 30-45 minutes each. For example, one in the late morning, and one in the early evening, depending on your pool's sun exposure hours.

If calcium deposits are an issue, that is related to your pH management. Make sure to report your complete test results.

This week I discovered a "stealth" algae bloom - water looked clear during the day but when the light was on at night it looked fairly cloudy. CC was .5 or less (one drop "cleared" it using the 10ml mark measuring level of the Taylor k2006 kit). Because of the cloudiness, I started to slam.

I don't think a CC<1.0 is indicative of a SLAM. I get CC=0.5 every now and then and it goes back to zero by itself within a day because I maintain high enough FC level with relation to my CYA.
 
Fred,

The idea that the spillway needs to constantly run is left over from the days before automation... At that time, your only choice was to run it all the time, or remember to manually turn it on and off everyday, which of course no one was ever going to do...

With automation your "Pool Guy" really has the right idea.. I only disagree with his timing. I would schedule the spillover to run two or three times a day for 30 minutes or so each time. Spread the time out over the day. With the last time just before the pool is shut off for the day.

To be honest, I suspect you are running on the low side of where you really should be FC wise. This can work for a pool with constant FC generation from the SWCG, but not so much for the spa.

Tell us.. What is your current CYA and what FC target level are you trying to maintain.

Running slower than what it takes to generate chlorine is just waste of energy... I suggest you determine at what speed your flow switch closes and run your pump, most of the time at that speed plus 100 RPM.

If your "cleaner" speed is used to run vacuum or pressure cleaner than ok, but if you are running at 2800 RPM and not running a cleaner, you are wasting more energy.

Running water through the filter is not what keeps your pool from getting algae... Having the proper FC to CYA level is what keeps you from having algae.. By the time is gets picked up by the filter is it too late... Algae can grow much faster than your filter can captured it.

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Fred,
My location is always 10-20 degrees hotter than where you are and I have yet to experience slam. Overtime, the spillway tricking or spillover just slide over the edge had grown on me since I upgraded to a VS pump. I only switch to high speed when there's pool activity or turning on the heater. At this time of the year, I run the pump at 1400 rpm split in 2 sessions for a total of 7 hours to replenish the daily FC loss. I use the robotic cleaner 2-3 times a week, replace the hairnet in the skimmer weekly and clean the filter once a year. In the winter, pump runs for 3 hours daily and SWCG is off until the water temp climbs back up above 63 F. This is when the alternative bleach would come handy.

By now, I would assume you already spent time reading at the Pool School and pretty much understand how to properly maintain a sparkling clear pool water via the TFP method. Lots of help and good advice here that will save you $. :cheers:
 
I agree. If you tested the FC in your spa late in the day it is probably very low.

Do you know what your CYA is and if your FC level is adequate according to [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

Post a set of your test results.

What model Intellichlor do your have? ICXX?

I should have posted this originally. I'm using the Pentair Intellichlor IC40. My test results are: FC = 5-6 typically (trying to get it to a consistent 5), CC = .5ish, CYA = 75, ph = 7.6 but variable - I'm new to pools and trying to find a sweet spot but swg makes this difficult, TA = 80. Water temp 85. My regular levels are consistent with the cya/fc chart. However...because I was messing with my schedule and settings recently, my FC dropped to 3 and I think less for a day or two. I know CC is wnl, but like I said, the water looks fairly cloudy at night with the light on. I read in one of the forums here that this may mean dead algae or some kind of bloom that isn't really showing up on my tests. Not sure how accurate it is, but I'm trying to get rid of any CC or at least not have it constantly "sub threshold".

What I'm hearing, then, is yes, keep the water flowing through the spa at a trickle, but maybe increase waterfall times to 2-3 times per day to get more heavy turnover. Easy to schedule. Keep the flow high enough - my 1800 sounds fine - to keep a constant supply of chlorine in the pool/spa. The electricity savings is nominal if I lower flow rate but increase run time.

For those that asked, yes, I have a Pool Cleaner (PoolFergugen thing) that barely runs at 1800 so the 2800 run gives it 2.5 hours of vacuuming the bottom of the pool. I just leave it in the pool 24/7.
 
Oh, and fwiw, here are a couple of pictures. You can see that the pool generally looks quite clear, but in the light is some particulate cloudiness. Doesn't show up terribly clear, but that halo isn't all just a photography exposure issue.

One last thing...All this happened after I cleaned my quad DE filter for the first time. Instead of using regular DE, I used AquaPerl perlite. I haven't heard that this stuff is HORRIBLE enough to lead to an automatic bloom, but thought I'd mention it.

View attachment 84326View attachment 84327
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Fred, there is no need to have the spa waterfall trickle all day unless you want the visual effect. The biggest downside to constant spillover is for those of us who deal with constantly rising pH. The trickle causes aeration, which raises pH faster, making you add acid more often.

If your pH is not rising out of range, then trickle away. But if pH management is a problem (and your reference to calcium scale suggest that it may be), then I would not go to the trouble of adjusting your return actuator. You'll probably end up adjusting it back after you throw in your zilliionth gallon of Muriatic Acid to control pH. :)
 
My test results are: FC = 5-6 typically (trying to get it to a consistent 5), CC = .5ish, CYA = 75, ph = 7.6 but variable - I'm new to pools and trying to find a sweet spot but swg makes this difficult, TA = 80. Water temp 85. My regular levels are consistent with the cya/fc chart.

Your CYA is 80. You always round up. Your FC target is 6 and your minimum is 4. [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]

FYI, the CYA scale is logarithmic, not linear. Halfway betwen marks is not 5. You can’t eyeball values between marks.

- - - Updated - - -

Fred, there is no need to have the spa waterfall trickle all day unless you want the visual effect. The biggest downside to constant spillover is for those of us who deal with constantly rising pH. The trickle causes aeration, which raises pH faster, making you add acid more often.

If your pH is not rising out of range, then trickle away. But if pH management is a problem (and your reference to calcium scale suggest that it may be), then I would not go to the trouble of adjusting your return actuator. You'll probably end up adjusting it back after you throw in your zilliionth gallon of Muriatic Acid to control pH. :)

The trickle he describes is unlikely to aerate and raise PH much.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and fwiw, here are a couple of pictures. You can see that the pool generally looks quite clear, but in the light is some particulate cloudiness. Doesn't show up terribly clear, but that halo isn't all just a photography exposure issue.

One last thing...All this happened after I cleaned my quad DE filter for the first time. Instead of using regular DE, I used AquaPerl perlite. I haven't heard that this stuff is HORRIBLE enough to lead to an automatic bloom, but thought I'd mention it.

I think you are being overly critical about the water at night. Using AquaPerl instead of DE may have something to do with it. I would switch back to DE before doing a SLAM Process due to that water.
 
I think you are being overly critical about the water at night. Using AquaPerl instead of DE may have something to do with it. I would switch back to DE before doing a SLAM Process due to that water.

The more I think about it, the timing is very suspicious. Been running the pool with the original schedule for a couple of months and no problems. Right after I clean the filter and recharge with Perlite, boom, cloudiness in the water. I'll go back to DE and see if that takes it away.

I will also fine tune water movement from the spa - spacing out brief periods of spillway activity and/or trickle. I welcome any more suggestions.

Thanks all!
 
I will also fine tune water movement from the spa - spacing out brief periods of spillway activity and/or trickle. I welcome any more suggestions.

One thing you can do to feel comfortable about the timing and number of your spillovers is test your spa water separately from your pool water for a few days. Test it right before and/or after each spillover cycle and you'll see how much your FC has degraded since the last spillover and then how much the spillover increases it. If it's not matching the pool water right after spillover is done, then I would increase the spillover time in that cycle.
 
Right after I clean the filter and recharge with Perlite, boom, cloudiness in the water. I'll go back to DE and see if that takes it away.

I have tried DE alternatives over the years and not found any medium that filters as good as DE.
 
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.