TDS or not TDS

Spa Owner

0
In The Industry
Jul 14, 2017
162
Victoria Park, Antipodean
Okay. This interests me. Everyone is correct and nothing said to date has been correct.

TDS does matter. However more importantly TDS make up matters.

Old thinking was the TDS is left over chemical ash that can interfere with chemical reactions making them slower and the affected water body can go off colour.

Observationally in one country where it is sub tropical rain forest if TDS in a chlorinated pool exceeded 1500 mg/l (100 out of the tap) water body would go green and no amount of chemical would fix it. Consequently drain and refill. Therefore TDS is obviously the culprit.

In a second country in a semi arid climate the tap water TDS levels in excess of 600, water bodies often having levels of 4000 or more with no apparent effect.
Therefore TDS is obviously not the culprit.

How can both observations be true?

TDS or Total dissolved solids is a conductivity measurement of the water. The actual measurement is the measurement of the amounts of anions present. Anions being chloride, phosphate, nitrate and so on.

Some anions have a greater impact on TDS than others. As a rule of thumb chlorides generally makes up 67% of the TDS we measure.

Going back to our two different countries, and unless you have had this exposure you wouldn't have realised this, the two mains waters are very different. Consequently one has 600 plus the other 100 maximum out of the tap. The water with 600 mg/l is from ground sources, the 100 from dams. This means the make up of the water is different. Ground water contains more chlorides (in this instance anyway, could be carbonates, sulphates etc). Consequently the TDS is reading higher.

Look at the two climates. One is sub tropical rainforest - this means lots of organics in the atmosphere and also a lot (comparatively) of rain. The other semi arid with not much organics load and little rain.

The indications from the observation and the chemical is, and it is only an opinion not based on anything but observations and thinking, that it is likely the water body going green over 1500 mg/l is containing higher levels of phosphates, nitrates and other organics anions than the water body in the semi arid climate. Therefore the make up of the TDS is different. Consequently the outcome is different.

I think there is some truth to the phrase 'Good and bad dissolved solids' based on very limited observation in the field. It would be interesting to gather more data and see if the hypothesis holds true.

However, yes of course salt being sodium chloride adds significantly to the TDS level. I don't think there is any harm from TDS which is primarily chlorides.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Observationally in one country where it is sub tropical rain forest if TDS in a chlorinated pool exceeded 1500 mg/l (100 out of the tap) water body would go green and no amount of chemical would fix it. Consequently drain and refill. Therefore TDS is obviously the culprit.

Any chance we could get you to cite your source for this little tidbit?
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

so,

Just so I am clear... You believe that if I never, ever tested for TDS, but did test for FC, CC, pH, TA, CH, CYA and in my case salt, and adjusted properly, that I am somehow going to get algae due to a TDS problem?

Why would that be? What in TDS would cause this issue?

Thanks,

Jim R.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Any chance we could get you to cite your source for this little tidbit?
Actual experience and when I say no amount I mean running filter 24 hours a day for a week holding pH at 7.0 and chlorine at 20 mg/l Free. Adding clarifier and no change at all.

- - - Updated - - -

so,

Just so I am clear... You believe that if I never, ever tested for TDS, but did test for FC, CC, pH, TA, CH, CYA and in my case salt, and adjusted properly, that I am somehow going to get algae due to a TDS problem?

Why would that be? What in TDS would cause this issue?

Observationally I think this depends on the make up of the TDS. I suspect there is a component of the phosphate/nitrate mix that may be problematic. For all I know it could be zinc or some other equally unusual occurrence, that happens to show up as a TDS as we aren't always testing for everything. Unfortunately the data I would need is no longer accessible to me as its a bit far to go from where I am.

- - - Updated - - -

I've had this same discussion about TDS with Aquarium keepers....Some cling to it like gospel. It reminds me of the OTO test--not specific enough for useful work.
Agree. TDS is an indicator it is not a hard and fast rule. I think not testing it is fine for most circumstances, however it only needs to be considered when and if other issues have been considered and eliminated.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Actual experience and when I say no amount I mean running filter 24 hours a day for a week holding pH at 7.0 and chlorine at 20 mg/l Free. Adding clarifier and no change at all.

That's simple. Filtering is only good for dead algae. pH should be around 7.2. Chlorine level is dependent on CYA level. Most likely your 20mg/l (20ppm)was not high enough for your CYA level. Correct, clarifier has no effect on algae.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Actual experience and when I say no amount I mean running filter 24 hours a day for a week holding pH at 7.0 and chlorine at 20 mg/l Free. Adding clarifier and no change at all.
Ah, I see. So this is nothing but your own "take me at my word" experience. While there is certainly something to be said for experience, approaching us with zero data for us to review, no control test, and no peer review making statements like "TDS is obviously the culprit" is laughable. You have a theory, nothing more, and a pretty flimsy one at that.

Well, I have a theory a bit more grounded in science than pool store myth: CYA. The older the water gets it has more TDS due to evaporation and refill. I'm sure stabilized chlorine is being used so odds are the CYA is rising at about the same speed as the TDS in these pools. CYA reduces the effectiveness of chlorine, and I bet the CYA is hitting the magic "3 ppm doesn't cut it" mark at the same time the TDS is hitting 1500ppm. There, no magic involved. We see it all the time, we diagnose it almost on a daily basis based off of good test results.

To say TDS is the problem and then backtrack with "I think this depends on the make up of the TDS" is hilarious. It is like telling someone with lung cancer that they must be getting too much air, but when confronted with the fact the patient smokes saying that it was still caused by air but depends on the makeup of the air. Knowing the total amount of everything dissolved in water is unimportant, knowing what is dissolved in the water is important. When 90% or more of TDS is made up of salt and that has zero affect on algae or chlorine effectiveness, how can you possibly say that this number is anything except as a scapegoat to point at when you don't want to admit that you lack the knowledge to properly fix the problem?

I will just finish with your comment about zinc making up a large portion of TDS and being an issue. Zinc functions as an algaecide in water. If the TDS were comprised of mostly zinc then you would not have algae. You would have massive staining, but probably not algae. You also mention phosphates, which are measured in micrograms/l so even when well in to the "could cause problem" range would make up 2-3 ml/l of TDS. I don't know how you could get that there is a phosphate problem from a TDS reading when the phosphates likely make up 0.1% of the reading.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Ah, I see. So this is nothing but your own "take me at my word" experience. While there is certainly something to be said for experience, approaching us with zero data for us to review, no control test, and no peer review making statements like "TDS is obviously the culprit" is laughable. You have a theory, nothing more, and a pretty flimsy one at that.

I appreciate your approach. However I was keeping my posts light as this is not a forum on all things. I do that a lot.

The issue with providing more data is I have moved countries, it was 35 years ago and to my knowledge it is unlikely any pool will be running chlorinated in a backyard anymore as all have moved to salt.

Do I look stupid, or is it an assumption? Perhaps ask before leaping to a conclusion based on your own opinion.

CYA wasn't the cause. That was obviously tested for. As was copper and iron. Phosphates on the other hand weren't available at the time as a test kit at retail level.

When 90% or more of TDS is made up of salt and that has zero affect on algae or chlorine effectiveness, how can you possibly say that this number is anything except as a scapegoat to point at when you don't want to admit that you lack the knowledge to properly fix the problem?


The lack of understanding of conductivity displayed is unfortunate and I can only suggest reading widely may assist in improving it.

Zinc wouldn't make a pool green. I assume this is known. Zinc makes the pool go a kind of sad grey white. I was simply pointing out that we do not test for every cation and anion that could possibly be present.

As I said TDS is an indicator. It is not a hard and fast rule. I think ignoring it completely will work a lot of the time, however not always.
 

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Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

Sorry...bit unclear.

One of the observations is this only occurs on sodium hypochlorite or trichlorisocyanuric chlorinated pools, in a specific situation. It was repeatable and common.

I don't know why it doesn't occur in salt chlorinated pools. But making it more complicated I moved countries making data difficult to obtain.

All I am saying is don't completely dismiss TDS. It may be indicating something other than the standard 6 or so parameters we test regularly. The why requires a complete lab ion analysis which I cant arrange in my old country as I simply don't have the contacts I would need.
 
Re: Good and bad dissolved solids

I have a question: were you following the [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA] when caring for these pools? Always kept the FC above 7.5% of the CYA, never letting it dip below? And when it went green are you saying that maintaining the FC above 40% of the CYA, as per SLAM, did not correct the problem?

They are trick questions, as you are talking 20 years before the FC/CYA theory or SLAM procedure had been realized.

That the problem happened in trichlor pools and not salt pools not only strongly points to this being a simple case of CYA overstabilization, but also completely destroys your argument that it is somehow TDS related. A salt pool will necessarily have 4000+ TDS due to the saltwater. You say that pools would go incurably green at 1500 mg/l, but then salt pools won't go green even with 4000 mg/l. How can TDS be an indicator of the problem when you are saying that the pools with the far higher TDS don't experience the problem??? Your own evidence flies in the face of your own theory.

I can, and will completely dismiss TDS. I am quite confident that your issues were CYA overstabilization, something the industry still is quick to dismiss exists, much more so 35 years ago. No lab ion analysis required, it's pretty clear just from your description and I am sure if you were able to find those test results they would confirm this. This might have been a good working theory back in the 80's, but further understanding since then given rise to better theories and better understanding of how chemicals react with each other.

Sadly, this entire conversation is quite common in the pool industry. Despite better understanding of chemistry today, industry veterans stick to the things they learned 30+ years ago. Their ideas become concrete fact to them over time, no matter how much proof is presented that they are incorrect. I guess it is just human nature, understandable really, but it holds this entire industry back so much that it is painful to see such old and outdated ideas still lingering on.
 
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