My heater is in hospice

[Rollercoastr]

Lochinvar 200 circa '01. Living indoors and heating a small pool, it should've had an easy life, but the pool was an acid bath when I found it. Heater performance has been falling since late winter. It cycles even with the pump on high, the stat all the way up and cold water. I can also smell raw gas at the flu for a few seconds at each cycle (could be normal, but I don't like it). The pressure sensor can't overcome the fact that the unit is mounted lower than the pool. It's currently heating the pool at ~1/3rd° per hour compared to 1° a year ago. I can't justify investing money into a unit this old, so I'm starting to look at replacements.

A close friend of mine is an outstanding HVAC tech. He can source / install nearly any unit on the market. Only coincidentally, he likes Lochinvar. RayPak is his second choice. I like that the current Lochinvars have a footprint/form factor similar to my current heater. That could mean an easier installation process and re-using the exiting foot-blocks etc. I'm also listening carefully when he describes good experiences servicing them and getting parts, but they cost a LOT more than every other unit I've seen: about 1/3 more than the Raypak.

I also considered a Pentair to match my SuperFlo pump in hopes that a compatible heater could make sure the pump runs while heating, but I don't see any reference to that by Pentair??

I'm hoping my infrastructure will allow me to up the capacity from 200. I'm comparing the Lochinvar 250 to the Raypak 266. My pool requires very little pump time, so I'd like to be able to heat the pool as quickly to avoid un-necessary pumping. I also suspect that 12,000 is a high estimate of my pool size. The house came with conflicting documentation showing a range from 9,000 to 13,000 gals.

thoughts?

 

[pooldv]

The pros here at TFP hands down recommend Raypak gas heaters. Less parts, easier to service, etc. It is unaminous.

There is no doubt that a 400k heater will heat your pool twice as fast as a 200k heater. And it will cost the same amount of money because it always takes X energy to raise your water temp by X degrees no matter how fast you do it. So, getting a bigger heater isnt a bad idea if your meter and gas service can handle the additional load.

Unfortunately, there is no benefit to buying a Pentair heater to go with your Pentair pump. Heaters almost universally have what is called a fireman switch which is simply a way for pool automation to turn a heater on or off. Most heater can do this all by themselves. But, the pump has to be running in either case to get a current water temp reading to know if heat is called for or not. Someday pool pumps and heaters might be as smart as most hot tubs in that they can turn on the pump once an hour (or whatever), check the temp and heat to temp if needed thereby leaving your hot tub at a constant temperature at all times without running the pump all the time. Pools, not so much.

I got around this somewhat by using the timer built in to my heat pump. I can set the time on the heat pump to turn on and off when I wanted. Such as, turn on at 8a and off at 9p so it is operating at more efficient heating times or isn't running all night, etc. But, the pump still needed to be running otherwise the heat pump turns on and gives a flow error. But, as you know with your VS pump, it is cheap to run it at lower rpm. I found that my heat pump (small, 50k BTU) was plenty efficient at 1500 rpm which is somewhere around 200 watts. I gauged "efficiency" by running my pump and heat pump at various speeds to see if it heated the pool more or less at different speeds. I found that it heated a little faster at 1500rpm vs 1100 rpm but not any more at 1800 rpm. So, 1500 is the magic number. Yours might need more flow, especially if you increase the BTU.

 

[CJadamec]

Lochinvar is a high end boiler maker for residential and light commercial heating products. You are paying more money for their product name and arguably a more robust heater than a Raypak. At the very least I would consider them equal. If your friend is a Lochinvar licensed/trained installer than you will get good warranty service from them. I'm not sure I would pay that much of a price premium for that unit though unless there were tangible benefits like a much better warranty period or more efficient heat exchanger. Lochinvar is claiming 85% efficiency on their heater. I don't know what raypak claims for heater efficiency but even if they claim an 80% efficiency the extra 5% on the Lochinvar will pay for the extra cost up front.

 

[Rollercoastr]

Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. I'll keep the dialogue going with my friend. He holds a high opinion of Raypak as well, so I'll definitely want to consider a good brand with a much lower purchase price. My gas meter and supply are up to task for a large heater. I'm not so sure about the feed pipe to the pump room, and the flue going out. The flue is large, but the pool heater shares it with a pair of water heaters.

Unfortunately, there is no benefit to buying a Pentair heater to go with your Pentair pump. Heaters almost universally have what is called a fireman switch which is simply a way for pool automation to turn a heater on or off.

Unfortunately / REALLY FRUSTRATINGLY! I don't understand why this is! It seems like many issues would be solved if heaters could send a simple command to a pump: "high speed until I say otherwise."

I could program even my basic SuperFlo to run a few times per day at a low speed. If the heater detects a water temp below a threshold, it could tell the pump to speed up and run until the water reaches the high threshold. Back to regular programming until needed... More advanced systems could be tuned for more run cycles and whatever ideal pump speed is determined.

There. Industry challenge solved. Next?

 

[ps0303]

If a heater had a brain like that it would cost more and then they wouldn't sell automation systems. People are already complaining about heater costs so why add more to them.

Lochinvar is more of a commercial grade unit with a high price tag. Go with a Raypak, at least that is what I would say.

 

[Swampwoman]

Unfortunately / REALLY FRUSTRATINGLY! I don't understand why this is! It seems like many issues would be solved if heaters could send a simple command to a pump: "high speed until I say otherwise."

True, but as Paul says, cost-prohibitive I developed this wish last year when sorting a winter air dome scenario to run yearround.

Instead, I've needed to become "the master scheduler" but once you work this out once and set everything, its pretty trouble free.

In my winter dome set up, the way I handle this is via scheduled heating events synchronized (by me via my automation, using the Heater's set point to limit, and scheduling my automation run as on/off by time instead of temp. So my water is "ready" for my am physio, then slowly drops a bit throughout the day until the next overnight run. I have an external temp set up to an in-pool thermometer so i can always see where the in-pool temp is at.

Should I decide to boost heat during my VSPs low cycle, eg guests over for night swim, I just hit override on the pump for time in pool (and the heat "on" on my remote) and then put it back in regular schedule. I haven't run the extra expansion relay yet to get overdrive to talk to my remote (if my pump were intelliflow, it would talk to my Intermatic pe653 this way) but that's on the to-do list. The pump itself is tied to my automation in an on-off way, and my vsp schedule is set onboard to conform to the daily rpm schedule I've set that synchronizes to the swg as well via the timer.

My Raypack thermostats once its achieved the set heat on the automation so my pm heat boost scenarios don't really end up costing me more, as the heater runs a bit less during its schedule because its achieved set temp.

Hope that makes sense. I've got it dialed in so that even with 20 degree night temps right now, my water is 95 in the dome daily and uses about $350 a month or less in NG. Remember I'm outdoors...you can heat for a lot less

My Raypak is a 266 btu unit I got from inyopools for a very good price ($1599 for the cupronickle, free shipping). I like it.

 

[Rollercoastr]

Update:

In a fit of selfishness, my HVAC expert friend started a family. Not only that, but he apparently thinks caring for his child is more important than installing a pool heater for me. Some people!

I've lined-up a plumber, and yesterday I placed an order at Inyo for a Raypak 206 with electronic ignition. It was $600 less than a comparable Lochinvar, and the plumbing fittings can be configured to the left side of the unit.

The copper pipes jog over to the right-side of the current heater. I'm hoping to simplify the routing to eliminate a couple of 90's.

 

[KDpoolguy]

I’d love to see the install of your new Raypak! Great choice. I love my Raypak 266a, vintage 1987 and still kicking after rebuild kit and welded in new bottom last year. When I need to replace Inyo’s free shipping and good prices are exactly where I landed as well.
Post during install!

 

[Rollercoastr]

It's in. The plumber wanted to let the pipe adhesive dry for 24 hours, so he's returning today to finish up and test it. He protected the hallway carpet and cleaned-up the scrap material, but the pump room itself looks like a bomb went off, so I didn't want to take a pic!