Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc?

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Filters I love me some filter... bigger is always better and way bigger is a bonus...

TR100 is a great big monster and will work well if you like a sand filter
Amazon.com : Pentair Triton II Side Mount Filter TR100 Fiberglass Sand Filter without Valve : Swimming Pool Cartridge Filters : Patio, Lawn Garden

That's getting pricey, especially when factoring in the need for a MPV on top of that. Plus, it's just barely above my requirements. TR140 should be more like what I should get, but dang... $$$

Cartridge, I love a cart filter, I would go 420 but you could go bigger using the 520, they are just about the same price but man are they great... I clean the filters once a year, no backwash needed... But some people hate cart filters and that is usually because they are too small... I have the 320 and even if I had to SLAM my pool I would still be able to get through the SLAM before I needed to clean them..
Amazon.com : Pentair 160301 Clean Garden
Amazon.com : Pentair 160332 Clean Garden

Yeah, the more I look, the more I like cart filters like these. Leaning towards the 420, as it's $679 for that vs $599 for the 320. Both are massively oversized for what I need, so that'd be nice to not have to clean it as often. I need to look into some other manufacturer's options here as well.

DE: They are the best filter for getting stuff out of the water and that also makes them the worst filter if anything like a SLAM is needed and that is only because they work so good you have to backwash and add DE.. The DE is another expense..

I hope this helps

I think DE's are out. The cleanliness would be nice, as I have 4 kids, but the maintenance and cost of adding DE makes this an unlikely option.

Yes, indeed this info helps! Thanks!

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you go cart, you may want to install a bypass for recirculating and a drain for vacuuming to waste. That way should you have algae at opening, it will be a much easier clean up.

As for size, given you are open only 3-4 months per year, the 320 is more than enough for your needs. I doubt you will have to clean it but once per year at closing or opening.

 

[bmoreswim]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you go cart, you may want to install a bypass for recirculating and a drain for vacuuming to waste. That way should you have algae at opening, it will be a much easier clean up.

I really like these two suggestions. Pretty low cost to install (a Jandy Neverlube valve or two and pipe/labor). I haven't had to open a swamp yet but should I have to, both would be beneficial. If I ever need to re-pipe, I'd add these two things.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you go cart, you may want to install a bypass for recirculating and a drain for vacuuming to waste. That way should you have algae at opening, it will be a much easier clean up.

I don't think I ever set my MPV to recirculate in the 2 years we've owned this place. What benefit does that option give?

With the way we are looking at redoing the plumbing (next to our house), I think we can install a diverter valve and run an extra pipe to the old plumbing, and connect that to the waste line which will still be behind the shed. I guess for waste purposes, I'm not terribly concerned if the old poly pipe has a leak somewhere or a barbed fitting/hose clamp that's loose.

 

[bmoreswim]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I don't think I ever set my MPV to recirculate in the 2 years we've owned this place. What benefit does that option give?

Since cartridge filters clog VERY quickly in an algae situation, the bypass valve gives you the option to add bleach up to SLAM level and just recirculate the water for a while to let it do its thing killing algae before you start filtering it out. Otherwise you may need to be cleaning cartridges every couple of hours.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Ahh... Thankfully I've never had to do a full on slam, at least not yet.

So is this a/the downside to a cartridge filter, in that there are no proper MPV's to allow for recirculation, drainage to waste, etc?

 

[bmoreswim]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Technically, yes, but not a big one in day-to-day operations.

 

[cowboycasey]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I did one of those 2, I used a 3 way and use it as a waste line, works great for closing or if I need to lower the water line

 

[bmoreswim]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I did one of those 2, I used a 3 way and use it as a waste line, works great for closing or if I need to lower the water line

The first pic was nice, the second, 'ok, good idea on the drain hose', then the third pic - now you're just making us all look bad!

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Nice, Casey! I was going ask the PB to do something similar with a 3-way valve to waste, but I'm glad you posted this, as I was going to have it connected post-heater & filter in my diagram! That would have been wasteful, no pun intended!

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Finally found a PB with solid customer service, one that's willing to listen to what we want. Have narrowed it down to the following gear:

Superflow VS pump
CCP 320 or 420 cart filter
Raypack 266A heater (likely running on LP)
2" piping: 1 return, 1 skimmer, 1 deep wall suction, 1 waste line

We will be relocating all out gear to the side of our house, which isn't used for much and is WAY easier to access than the corner of our lot.

PB said he'd be able to bond the frame of the pool wall, but we're not sure about the ladder and drop in stairs (cups for ladder are already built into the concrete, but the stairs have an cup that's bolted to the concrete). They said they could bring a #8 back to the pad, and the ground rods for the house are right there at the pad.

We will need new electrical for the gear, so I'm thinking I need to tell the electrician that we will need 2 disconnects (1 for heater power, 1 for the pump) plus a GFCI outlet in case I need to hook up a blower to blow out the lines for winter. Would a house mounted light be a good idea as well? Anything else I should be asking/requiring of the electrician? I'm scanning article 680 of the NEC code right now, looking for other things to spec out.

As far as the pump & heater combo goes, could there be a problem with the lowest speed of the pump being too low a flow for the heater? I saw some numbers on the Energy Star website which said the flow for Curve A was 8 GPM on the most efficient speed. I think the heater needs 20 GPM flow minimum, so would I be losing that most efficient speed of the pump during the early and late portion of our season?

Anything else that I should be asking of our PB and/or electrician?

 

[Captain 776]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I think, running a pump 24/7 is crazy and unnecessary. I have a 2HP motor and run it 4-5 hrs in our winter months and 7 hrs in summer and my water tests well all the time except for having to adjust PH, but that has nothing to do with motor, it is a result of using SWG. When I run 7 hrs, my time clock is set to run the pump from 7am to 11 am then the pump is off and resting and cooling down from 11am to 2 pm and then it is on again from 2 pm to 5 pm.
even if you live in an area where electric is cheap, running 24/7 is going to cost and wear your motor out significantly faster.
i would like a few people more knowledgeable than myself to weigh in on running 24/7.

if you are going to re-pipe everything, did a trench a foot or so deep and put 3-4 inches of sand in it, then run your piping on the sand bed, make a map/drawing of where the pipes are, take measurements from the corner of the house ir any other fixed object, make sure to pressure test before backfilling and this way your piping is easily accessible and you know exactly where it is if you develop any problems later.

 

[cowboycasey]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

The first pic was nice, the second, 'ok, good idea on the drain hose', then the third pic - now you're just making us all look bad!

That was not my intention I promise, for some reason I over engineer everything, it's a curse

 

[cowboycasey]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Finally found a PB with solid customer service, one that's willing to listen to what we want. Have narrowed it down to the following gear:

Superflow VS pump
CCP 320 or 420 cart filter
Raypack 266A heater (likely running on LP)
2" piping: 1 return, 1 skimmer, 1 deep wall suction, 1 waste line

We will be relocating all out gear to the side of our house, which isn't used for much and is WAY easier to access than the corner of our lot.

PB said he'd be able to bond the frame of the pool wall, but we're not sure about the ladder and drop in stairs (cups for ladder are already built into the concrete, but the stairs have an cup that's bolted to the concrete). They said they could bring a #8 back to the pad, and the ground rods for the house are right there at the pad.

We will need new electrical for the gear, so I'm thinking I need to tell the electrician that we will need 2 disconnects (1 for heater power, 1 for the pump) plus a GFCI outlet in case I need to hook up a blower to blow out the lines for winter. Would a house mounted light be a good idea as well? Anything else I should be asking/requiring of the electrician? I'm scanning article 680 of the NEC code right now, looking for other things to spec out.

As far as the pump & heater combo goes, could there be a problem with the lowest speed of the pump being too low a flow for the heater? I saw some numbers on the Energy Star website which said the flow for Curve A was 8 GPM on the most efficient speed. I think the heater needs 20 GPM flow minimum, so would I be losing that most efficient speed of the pump during the early and late portion of our season?

Anything else that I should be asking of our PB and/or electrician?

Bold above,

Remember bonding is separate from grounding, so if you have ground rods for your house (should be grounded back through the power company) these will not be used for bonding..

you can just use breakers, your pump is probably good on a 20 amp breaker and your heater is probably the same.. I ran a 60 amp GFCI to my box then went into separate breakers for each piece of equipment, this means the electrician did it, not me

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Bold above,

Remember bonding is separate from grounding, so if you have ground rods for your house (should be grounded back through the power company) these will not be used for bonding..

Had a second company come out for an estimate today. After talking to them about bonding and reading Mike Holts illustrated guide to NEC 680 for pools, it all makes a bit more sense. The point to bonding is to tie everything together related to the pool, right? It's not clear if there is an optimal way to doing so, like through one common point (i.e. a star pattern") such as the metal frame wall behind the liner of our pool? I have a background in pro audio, where its best practice to tie everything to a single point to reduce induced noise & hum in the audio signal path.

What I'm unsure of is that since we have a liner pool and I don't think the concrete deck's rebar (if there is any) isn't connected to anything. I can run some bond wires to where the ladder and stairs are mounted, so those will be bonded. What, if anything, do I need to do for the deck?

It looks like I will have to bond the gutter on the back of the house (horizontally 5' from the edge of the pool) and might need to bond the fence around the pool. Not sure about the latter item yet.

you can just use breakers, your pump is probably good on a 20 amp breaker and your heater is probably the same.. I ran a 60 amp GFCI to my box then went into separate breakers for each piece of equipment, this means the electrician did it, not me

I have a disconnect on this side of the house for our AC unit that needs to be redone. The previous owners didn't run the wiring for it properly, as the romex wiring isn't secured anywhere on its run around the perimeter of the house. That needs to be redone simultaneously with the new pool wiring.

So do you suggest an exterior sub-panel that would hold the GFCI breakers for the pool equipment and an outlet? Would the turning the breaker off suffice as a means to disconnect power?

 

[cowboycasey]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

That would be a perfect way to accomplish what you are doing, if the air conditioner is also there nothing wrong with tying that in also, 100 amp sub panel, 60 for the ac, 40 for the rest of your equipment [emoji2]

I am using my phone so please excuse any spelling errors and short response.

 

[gwegan]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

A subpanel for the pool is the best practice. So long as the subpanel has 6 or less breakers it qualifies as a disconnect at least to my building inspectors.

The metal walls and metal framing for the walls should be connected to the bonding system. So should the metal ladder and stairs. If they are less than 20 years old they should have bonding lugs already on them. Don't forget a water bond also.

Just a reminder sheathed cable (romex) is generally not permitted outside above ground (below ground it must be listed for that use) and all wiring associated with a pool must be in metal or plastic conduit. Its best to have all 120v or 240 v residential outdoor wiring in conduit even if not required by code so 20 years from now some guy with a shovel doesn't have a bad day.

You outlet should be supplied from the pool subpanel. The NEC requires a continence outlet between 6 and 20 feet from your pool.

I don't think you need to bond the gutter, neither does Mike Holt. Buried in one of his videos a member of his panel shows a bonded gutter and they all agree its not necessary.

The deck AGGGGGRH is not easy. What you want is the deck bonded to the water so someone stepping out of the pool does not become a conductor. If there really is rebar in the deck within 3 feet of the pool my suggestion is to chisel out to the rebar in two inconspicuous spots, and connect to the rebar. No easy answers here. I would also look closely there may be a bond wire coming off the deck.

 

[borjis]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Interesting about the gutters not needing bonding...I had often thought that seemed like over kill....does he still recommend metal framed doors & windows be bonded?

I removed a metal screen door I didn't need that was nearby and all the windows are vinyl pane.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

A subpanel for the pool is the best practice. So long as the subpanel has 6 or less breakers it qualifies as a disconnect at least to my building inspectors.

I think this might work out OK, though it doesn't sound like it will allow for an extra circuit I was hoping for, a permanent light fixture over the equipment.

The metal walls and metal framing for the walls should be connected to the bonding system. So should the metal ladder and stairs. If they are less than 20 years old they should have bonding lugs already on them. Don't forget a water bond also.

I'm sure the stairs are less than 20 years old, but the ladders aren't. Shouldn't the bonding to the heater serve as a water bond?

Just a reminder sheathed cable (romex) is generally not permitted outside above ground (below ground it must be listed for that use) and all wiring associated with a pool must be in metal or plastic conduit. Its best to have all 120v or 240 v residential outdoor wiring in conduit even if not required by code so 20 years from now some guy with a shovel doesn't have a bad day.

Everything will likely have liquidtight connections from the panel to the equipment.

You outlet should be supplied from the pool subpanel. The NEC requires a continence outlet between 6 and 20 feet from your pool.

We haven't had one of those, at least not GFCI protected. Heck, the old electrical wasn't even truly breaker protected until we upgraded the house panel a few months ago (the old panel had breakers that wouldn't trip - at all).

I don't think you need to bond the gutter, neither does Mike Holt. Buried in one of his videos a member of his panel shows a bonded gutter and they all agree its not necessary.

That's easy enough to add later, so I'll skip it for now...

The deck AGGGGGRH is not easy. What you want is the deck bonded to the water so someone stepping out of the pool does not become a conductor. If there really is rebar in the deck within 3 feet of the pool my suggestion is to chisel out to the rebar in two inconspicuous spots, and connect to the rebar. No easy answers here. I would also look closely there may be a bond wire coming off the deck.

I just checked, and there is only rebar in one section of the concrete (for the former diving board that we used to have), and the concrete around the pool is poured in separate sections (multiple 5x5 sections) that don't touch each other. I haven't looked closely to see if there's anything connecting the concrete to the frame of the pool.

 

[tim5055]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

As soon as the electrician talked about connecting the bonding to existing ground rods it shows the lack of understanding that is common in the electrical industry with pool bonding. I'm glad the Mike Holt information has been helpful in clearing up some of the issues.

As to the heater or pump being the water bond, it's a big maybe. Many times especially with pumps there is not sufficient metal to water contact to qualify as the water bond. Many people add one of these to the skimmer to be sure. They are available on Amazon for less than $40