Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc?

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Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

That is the exact unit I used :)
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

tim5055 said:
As to the heater or pump being the water bond, it's a big maybe. Many times especially with pumps there is not sufficient metal to water contact to qualify as the water bond. Many people add one of these to the skimmer to be sure. They are available on Amazon for less than $40
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Between the heat exchanger and a metal ladder all contacting the water, wouldn't that be more than sufficient?

I know my big ladder alone is an equivalent surface area bigger then that skimmer plate.

quoted from the pdf:

"An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 9” shall be installed in contact with the pool water."
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

borjis said:
Between the heat exchanger and a metal ladder all contacting the water, wouldn't that be more than sufficient?

I know my big ladder alone is an equivalent surface area bigger then that skimmer plate.

quoted from the pdf:

"An intentional bond of a minimum conductive surface area of 9” shall be installed in contact with the pool water."
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It's always a conservative "maybe". Especially when dealing with electrical inspectors, they want to see a device that is listed for the use. While I would agree that the ladder may provide the required 9", it's not a listed device for that purpose. Sometimes you can just go in circles trying to figure some issues out.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

tim5055 said:
As soon as the electrician talked about connecting the bonding to existing ground rods it shows the lack of understanding that is common in the electrical industry with pool bonding.
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It wasn't what the PB said, but how I interpreted what he said that the electrician would do... something along the lines of them bonding the pool frame back to the pump & heater, but then "leaving a bond wire for the electrician to bond to whatever he would need to."

tim5055 said:
I'm glad the Mike Holt information has been helpful in clearing up some of the issues.

As to the heater or pump being the water bond, it's a big maybe. Many times especially with pumps there is not sufficient metal to water contact to qualify as the water bond. Many people add one of these to the skimmer to be sure. They are available on Amazon for less than $40
Click to expand...
Mike Holt is hugely helpful! I'll look into that device.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

tim5055 said:
It's always a conservative "maybe". Especially when dealing with electrical inspectors, they want to see a device that is listed for the use. While I would agree that the ladder may provide the required 9", it's not a listed device for that purpose. Sometimes you can just go in circles trying to figure some issues out.
Click to expand...

Good point.

Definitely want the inspector satisfied.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Inspectors don't like ladders or heaters as the bonding conduit to the water. Both can be easily removed. Tim's approach is the best one, it gives the inspector a listed item that does the job so he can check it off his list. More importantly the water bond is installed in a place that won't be easily removed.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

gwegan said:
Inspectors don't like ladders or heaters as the bonding conduit to the water. Both can be easily removed. Tim's approach is the best one, it gives the inspector a listed item that does the job so he can check it off his list. More importantly the water bond is installed in a place that won't be easily removed.
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Considering that a leak somewhere in the skimmer line is what got me to the point in the first place, it makes me a bit nervous to intentionally drill a hole in my skimmer...
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

mas985 said:
No, not worth it and it could end up causing leaks. Most pools have 1 1/2" out of the returns anyway. Only change the pipe if it is leaking or you suspect that it may start to leak (e.g. poly with hose clamps).
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Ugh... so the PB wants to use poly pipe with barb fittings! Granted what's in our pool now is 30+ year old poly pipe (with at least 4 repairs to the skimmer line), but isn't it better to get away from poly pipe and use some form of schedule 40 compatible flexible pipe/tubing?

Is being located in Wisconsin, with our frozen tundra, going to limit us to using poly pipe, barbed fittings, & hose clamps?
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Poly pipe is good when done right and buried deep enough. Virtually everyone with a drilled well on there property has the well connected to their house in 1 1/4" black poly pipe with barb fittings. To boot the poly pipe is what runs down the well sometimes over 400 feet to connect to the pump. Sch 40 pvc buried above frost depth in your neck of the woods is almost garuntied to crack. Sch 40 is pretty ridgid stuff and when you get it below freezing Temps it gets very brittle. I will likely get told I'm wrong here but there is a reason for using black poly in the northern regions.
 

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Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

CJadamec said:
Poly pipe is good when done right and buried deep enough.
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It could be that what we have isn't deep enough. Wouldn't surprise me. I'll find out once we dig it up. Any guess as to how deep it ought to be?

CJadamec said:
Sch 40 pvc buried above frost depth in your neck of the woods is almost garuntied to crack. Sch 40 is pretty ridgid stuff and when you get it below freezing Temps it gets very brittle. I will likely get told I'm wrong here but there is a reason for using black poly in the northern regions.
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Agreed, from everything I understand about rigid PVC. Isn't it odd though, that they'd connect the poly to rigid PVC, and the rigid stubs up through the ground to the pad - right through the ground which would have the most frost?

Either way, I'm not going to fight the PB on it if they guarantee the poly pipe.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Frost depth where I am is 42 inches further up north in Maine it goes to 48 inches I believe. Generally what ever the minimum footing depth for you local building code is considered minimum frost free depth. If you aren't getting to full frost free depth covering the pipe in a few inches of sand before back filling with soil can be added insurance. Another thing to consider about bury depth is poly pipe with no water in it should be able to survive in the frost zone so long as no rocks are trying to poke a hole in it. If the pipe is full or partly full of water when it freezes it may not burst but the ice will make it ridgid and make it prone to heave damage. I'm not familiar with winterizing an in ground pool but I would think using compressed air to purge the water from buried lines would be an important step for this reason.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Hmm... I don't think that the poly pipe we have is anything less than 24" deep, as it was only 6" deep by the time it got to the pad. I'll try to dig it deeper than it was, but we don't have much space to dig a wide enough trench to get down past 36". There's only about 48" of space between the pool and the trees lining our property.

The PB was adamant that this poly pipe was the way to go, and kept referring to the schedule 40 flex PVC I was asking as "spa pipe." I thought I knew what spa pipe was? Maybe not?
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I think he is thinking of the older style of flex PVC sometimes used on some standalone spas. The latest generation of flex PVC is nearly as strong as ridged and has the advantage of glue weld fittings that poly doesn't. I know I would be happier with flex PVC than poly.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

The flexable schd 40 pvc is nice and having the solvent weld fittings is a plus over barbed fittings. The black poly is still more crush and split resistant than flexible pvc could ever hope to be. There is also cost. 100 feet of 2" flex pvc runs about $150 the same length of poly is about $80. If someone figured out how to use Pex tubing to plumb their pool that would be about as leak proof as you could get. Only problem there is the biggest I've seen is 1" tubing.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

mas985 said:
I think he is thinking of the older style of flex PVC sometimes used on some standalone spas. The latest generation of flex PVC is nearly as strong as ridged and has the advantage of glue weld fittings that poly doesn't. I know I would be happier with flex PVC than poly.
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Same here, but I don't know how well it works in the frozen ground up north?

CJadamec said:
The flexable schd 40 pvc is nice and having the solvent weld fittings is a plus over barbed fittings. The black poly is still more crush and split resistant than flexible pvc could ever hope to be. There is also cost. 100 feet of 2" flex pvc runs about $150 the same length of poly is about $80. If someone figured out how to use Pex tubing to plumb their pool that would be about as leak proof as you could get. Only problem there is the biggest I've seen is 1" tubing.
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My PB's quote is for 200 feet of poly, for $400. Argh...
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Well is that installed price or just material the fittings will add up quickly. He may be bundling a lot of little things into that number.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

CJadamec said:
Well is that installed price or just material the fittings will add up quickly. He may be bundling a lot of little things into that number.
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Thats just materials. There's a separate "Misc plumbing" (~$200) and "Labor" ($1000) line items on the quote.

FWIW, me and my FIL are doing the trenching and pouring the pad. All they have to do is connect the pipe to the pool wall fittings & the skimmer, and lay it in the trench to the pad. Then, they have to plump the rigid PVC in/out of the ground and to/from the gear. They're going to run a #8 bond wire from the pool wall frame to the pad too.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

None of those numbers sound all too crazy. I'm a huge DIY kind of person, I went so far as to act as the general contractor on my own house. When looking at material for what you can buy it for and what a contractor charges you for its never really an apples to apples comparison. I had a very honest foundation contractor who told me flat out if I ordered the concrete it would cost me X amount. If he ordered the concrete for me it would cost me X amount plus about 20% for his mark up. Same concrete from the same delivery truck. Its rough to pay a lot of money for work you think you might be able to do. If you've gone as far as to dig the trench I'm sure you like to tackle things yourself.
 

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