Ozone with or without saltwater

[RTeen]

Hello

This is my first year with my saltwater pool with a chlorine generator and a PH dosing pump. I am experimenting with chlorine, pH, TA levels. I think I am getting better at it. My pool is an overflow type, roughly 24,000 gallons, outdoor private usage in summer with plenty of sunlight.

My understanding so far is that under my current setup I still need to shock chlorine my pool every other week. I wasn’t informed about this when I made my purchase decision. Now I am thinking maybe I should have gone with an Ozone generator solution.

If we ignore the part and installation costs and focus only on near automatic maintenance of the pool and swimmer health, should I:

A) add an Ozone generator as main sanitizer to the existing set up and tune down the chlorine generator
B) add an Ozone generator and a liquid chlorine dosage pump to maintain minimum chlorine levels and get rid of the salt water (basically sweet water)
C) add an Ozone pump, get rid of salt water, and manage minimum chlorine levels manually with chlorine tablets or other solid or liquid chlorine products

Someone actually asked me why I didn’t opt for option C from the beginning. Interestingly during the shopping stage nobody offered this solution, but it sounds very viable and costs would have been very similar to my current setup. Anyhow I don’t want to digress.

Basically I would like to get rid of the chlorine shocking process. Moreover some of the kids complained about nausea and eye irritation even though I maintain 1.5-2ppm chlorine levels. My pH is maintained automatically at 7.2 (my TA is 50ish cannot accurately read from the color strip, I made it that way because my water supply is 7.7pH and together with the chlorine generator pool pH was going up fast and pH dosage pump had to pump more). So going down to 0.5-1ppm chlorine levels sound useful with the side benefit of reducing the pH up push by the chlorine generator. I still haven’t decided whether to have a salt taste in the water or not, hence the saltwater discussion.

Thanks

 

[Newdude]

Hey RT and Welcome !!!!

Many, many salt pool owners around the world would rather fill their pools in than give up the SWG. Many (single many) liquid chlorine users add salt to the pool for feel alone as its closer to our body's salt content. (And still 1/10 of thr salinity of the ocean).

Ozone systems don't leave any residual sanitizer in the 99.99999% of the pool that doesn't pass through the unit at any given moment. It could be days before all the pool water makes it through the unit. As you suck more water to be sanitized, you return it by mixing the new with the old.

As such, you need full chlorination no matter what the manufacturer claims.

See :

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

P.S. similar goes for UV systems because that is most people's next logical choice of scam.

 

[RTeen]

Hey RT and Welcome !!!!

Many, many salt pool owners around the world would rather fill their pools in than give up the SWG. Many (single many) liquid chlorine users add salt to the pool for feel alone as its closer to our body's salt content. (And still 1/10 of thr salinity of the ocean).

Ozone systems don't leave any residual sanitizer in the 99.99999% of the pool that doesn't pass through the unit at any given moment. It could be days before all the pool water makes it through the unit. As you suck more water to be sanitized, you return it by mixing the new with the old.

As such, you need full chlorination no matter what the manufacturer claims.

See :

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

P.S. similar goes for UV systems because that is most people's next logical choice of scam.

I did my research and I am not trying to avoid chlorination. I am trying to avoid regular shocking, reduce chlorine discomfort, and increase automation.

 

[Newdude]

I am trying to avoid regular shocking, reduce chlorine discomfort,

Both are WELL covered by the TFP method.
If you go with the inaccurate results of pool store / test strip testing, or do not proactively maintain the pool on a regular (daily) basis, then weekly shocking is your only hope, and it will bite you eventually.

CYA buffers chlorine and any target range of the FC/CYA Levels is less harsh than tap water with 0 CYA and up to 4ppm chlorine. The industry does not recognize this scientific fact, but they aren't about science like we are, they are about profit and making people's pools need more expensive chemicals.

Nothing you could purchase makes pool care easier than a Salt Water Chlorone Generator. If you'd like to adjust it from your cellphone there is further automation available, but walking out back and pressing a button a few times a season is fine by me.

 

[RTeen]

Both are WELL covered by the TFP method.
If you go with the inaccurate results of pool store / test strip testing, or do not proactively maintain the pool on a regular (daily) basis, then weekly shocking is your only hope, and it will bite you eventually.

CYA buffers chlorone and any target range of the FC/CYA Levels is less harsh than tap water with 0 CYA and up to 4ppm chlorine. The industry does not recognize this scientific fact, but they aren't about science like we are, they are about profit and making people's pools need more expensive chemicals.

Nothing you could purchase makes pool care easier than a Salt Water Chlorone Generator. If you'd like to adjust it from your cellphone there is further automation available, but walking out back and pressing a button a few times a season is fine by me.

I don’t understand what you are saying. I can easily maintain constant 2ppm chlorine with my chlorine generator with 0 CYA. My research indicates that an ozone generator can easily replace a shocking procedure as it breaks chloramines in the pool.

 

[PoolStored]

I don’t understand what you are saying. I can easily maintain constant 2ppm chlorine with my chlorine generator with 0 CNY. My research indicates that an ozone generator can easily replace a shocking procedure as it breaks chloramines in the pool.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

My research indicates that an ozone generator can easily replace a shocking procedure as it breaks chloramines in the pool

Your research all points back to the manufacturer claims or the industry selling the devices. (Or rando bloggers that don't know anything). Check the member counter at the bottom of the page. 328,543 members over 15 years and climbing by the day. We've seen member after member after memebr find us when their O2/UV system didn't do what it was supposed to, or did exactly what it was supposed to and it wasn't nearly enough.

We have a boatload of collective wisdom here, based in science and time tested over 15 years. Plenty of folks in your shoes would be coming back to preach their systems if they worked long term. Instead we see memebers saying they wish they listened, or found us sooner.

I have seen your exact story played out more times than I can count, so I already know you incredibly well. You, unfortunately, don't know us yet to help you want to listen. So, an introduction is necessary from our end.

This is what we do on the cheap and easy
How Clear is TFP Clear?
This is how we do it.
Pool Care Basics

 

[Jimrahbe]

I am trying to avoid regular shocking, reduce chlorine discomfort,

R,

Your problem is not too much chlorine but too little.

I have three saltwater pools and in "total" they have been TFP pool for over 25 years. In all that time I have not added a single bag of pool store shock.

If you have to routinely add "shock" to your saltwater pool, you are just not doing it right.

If you maintain the proper CYA to FC ratio, you will never smell the chlorine, you will never get algae, and you will never have to add shock again. See the saltwater section of this chart. FC/CYA Levels

You should read through our Pool School and see what we are all about. We are not about UV, Ozone or other magic.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[BK MAC]

An oversimplification perhaps......... but you're only 14-16 lbs of CYA, an adjustment on your SWG, and some TFP knowledge away from getting what you're looking for.

 

[RTeen]

R,

Your problem is not too much chlorine but too little.

I have three saltwater pools and in "total" they have been TFP pool for over 25 years. In all that time I have not added a single bag of pool store shock.

If you have to routinely add "shock" to your saltwater pool, you are just not doing it right.

If you maintain the proper CYA to FC ratio, you will never smell the chlorine, you will never get algae, and you will never have to add shock again. See the saltwater section of this chart. FC/CYA Levels

You should read through our Pool School and see what we are all about. We are not about UZ, Ozone or other magic.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Ok. So what you are saying is

1) ozone generator for a residential outdoor pool is useless. I can understand that recommendation of ozone generators may be a scam.
2) I don’t actually need to shock my pool regularly if I maintain the correct CYA/FC level. Is the shock your pool regularly recommendation also a scam?

If the above 2 points are in fact true, and if I can generate the ideal FC (according to the table in the link) from my SWG why do I need CYA in my pool? I mean if I keep pushing adequate FC to the pool with SWG, why do I care if some of that gets out of the pool?

 

[PoolStored]

Ok. So what you are saying is

1) ozone generator for a residential outdoor pool is useless. I can understand that recommendation of ozone generators may be a scam.

Right, adds no value.

2) I don’t actually need to shock my pool regularly if I maintain the correct CYA/FC level. Is the shock your pool regularly recommendation also a scam?

You do not need to shock your pool.

If the above 2 points are in fact true, and if I can generate the ideal FC (according to the table in the link) from my SWG why do I need CYA in my pool? I mean if I keep pushing adequate FC to the pool with SWG, why do I care if some of that gets out of the pool?

CYA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[mknauss]

If, in bright sunshine and swimmer activity, etc, in all parts of your pool water column, at all times, the FC stays at 2 ppm and above, then you are right, no CYA is necessary. But since FC half life without CYA in the water is 50 minutes with sunshine on the pool, and pools typically have very shallow areas that can be depleted in FC rapidly, or swimmers do things in pools and have contaminants on them that can rapidly deplete FC, the CYA is a reserve. It releases the bound chlorine as needed.

Entirely up to you, but TFPC manages the issues you speak you have. With out the methods you are considering using.

 

[RTeen]

Your research all points back to the manufacturer claims or the industry selling the devices. (Or rando bloggers that don't know anything). Check the member counter at the bottom of the page. 328,543 members over 15 years and climbing by the day. We've seen member after member after memebr find us when their O2/UV system didn't do what it was supposed to, or did exactly what it was supposed to and it wasn't nearly enough.

We have a boatload of collective wisdom here, based in science and time tested over 15 years. Plenty of folks in your shoes would be coming back to preach their systems if they worked long term. Instead we see memebers saying they wish they listened, or found us sooner.

I have seen your exact story played out more times than I can count, so I already know you incredibly well. You, unfortunately, don't know us yet to help you want to listen. So, an introduction is necessary from our end.

This is what we do on the cheap and easy
How Clear is TFP Clear?
This is how we do it.
Pool Care Basics

I wasn’t dissing your recommendation. I am just trying to understand “exactly” what you are telling me. As clarified by the other poster if I maintain a correct CYA/FC ratio then I don’t need to regularly shock the pool. I want to be really sure that this is a good operating procedure because I don’t want to make the kids sick by either letting germs grow or cause chlorine poisoning. I am sure you can understand that.

PS: we can close the ozone generator discussion as it is absolutely clear now

 

[PoolStored]

I want to be really sure that this is a good operating procedure because I don’t want to make the kids sick by either letting germs grow or cause chlorine poisoning. I am sure you can understand that.

It is excellent operating procedure, you will have enough free chlorine to sanitize your water. No one will be poisoned.

There is excellent science behind our recommendations!

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

wasn’t dissing your recommendation. I am just trying to understand “exactly” what you are telling me.

Zero offense taken. I'm trying to help you understand. Again, we've seen your side many, many times so we know where you're coming from. You just met us so we have some goodwill to prove. Goodwill, I might add, is all we get. We have no financial motives to push anything, unlike the pool builder/ pool store.

I want to be really sure that this is a good operating procedure because I don’t want to make the kids sick by either letting germs grow or cause chlorine poisoning. I am sure you can understand that.

We all do the program in our own pools with great success. Shocking is what you have to do when you screwed up. Those who need to do it weekly were carelessly maintaining an unsanitary pool. We can teach you how to never need to shock, or recognize the rarity that something lapsed and it's now warranted. Life happens sometimes for all of us and we get that.

 

[SJPoe]

I want to be really sure that this is a good operating procedure because I don’t want to make the kids sick by either letting germs grow or cause chlorine poisoning.

I have followed the recommendations here - maintain my CYA at about 50-60, and my FC around 5-9ppm. PH is about 7.6. I haven't measured TA/CH lately, but they were 90/120 last I looked.
All I do daily is add liquid chlorine to maintain my levels. Skim out any leaves or debris that got under the solar cover.
Weekly, I brush the sides, maybe vacuum if the robot has missed some spots, backwash the filter for a couple minutes.
If I spent 2 hours a week on 'maintenance' I would be surprised.
I'm considering an SWG, it just not in the budget right this minute. I have a bucket of chlorine pucks from the previous owner that I have never touched.

The water is crystal clear. I mean..."is there water in the pool ?" clear.
I have multiple grandkids/godkids in the pool throughout the week, and since starting the TFP method, no one has complained of eye irritation, nausea, itchiness or anything. To be honest, the only thing they complain about is having to get OUT of the pool...I swear they'd sleep in it given the chance.

Do your own water tests, execute based on those results. The pool store / hardware vendor makes money by selling you stuff. If they told you all you needed was a test kit and some bleach, they'd be out of business....

 

[Toxophilite]

Don't be too quick to connect kids having stomach issues while swimming with them having ingested water. It tends to be our first intuition, the water, but it's generally more to do with how they play. When swimming, they ingest more air into their stomach, this is from the pressure of the water on them causing them to gulp more as they breath. Real common. Every swim session, on of our grandkids is eventually headed to the toilet, inevitably. But, they play real hard and with a few minutes rest, back in play. Same with eye irritation. It's not the chlorine. Maybe if a pool is dirty and high CC, or a pH issue, but almost always just a lot of water in the eyes, heavy play, they get tired but don't quit, etc..... My takeaway is that kids are not a good barometer of pool chemistry.

 

[Jimrahbe]

R,

CYA holds some of the chlorine in reserve. This is why we can run at a higher FC level, yet not have that obvious chlorine smell or feel. Without any CYA, the chlorine will feel harsh and the sun will quickly burn it off.

I run my CYA at about 70 ppm and it is impossible for anyone to tell that there is any chlorine in the water by smell or feel. The only way to know is by chemical testing.

Another benefit of CYA is that it allows you to run the cell at a lower output. I am sure you know that cells can only produce x amount of chlorine before becoming depleted. Most cells last 5 to 7 years but running without CYA would certainly cut that time down.

Two of my pools are at rent houses. One of these houses is not close to where I live, so I only visit it once a month. I can do this because the SWCG and the TFP pool care process make the pool almost maintenance free. The renters do clean the skimmer and add water and run the robot cleaner, but chemical wise, they do nothing.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RTeen]

R,

CYA holds some of the chlorine in reserve. This is why we can run at a higher FC level, yet not have that obvious chlorine smell or feel. Without any CYA, the chlorine will feel harsh and the sun will quickly burn it off.

I run my CYA at about 70 ppm and it is impossible for anyone to tell that there is any chlorine in the water by smell or feel. The only way to know is by chemical testing.

Another benefit of CYA is that it allows you to run the cell at a lower output. I am sure you know that cells can only produce x amount of chlorine before becoming depleted. Most cells last 5 to 7 years but running without CYA would certainly cut that time down.

Two of my pools are at rent houses. One of these houses is not close to where I live, so I only visit it once a month. I can do this because the SWCG and the TFP pool care process make the pool almost maintenance free. The renters do clean the skimmer and add water and run the robot cleaner, but chemical wise, they do nothing.

Thanks,

Jim R.

In the link provided

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

The 70 CYA 5ppm FC (as per recommendation table) seems to be below the algae killing line. What am I missing here?

 

[RTeen]

It is excellent operating procedure, you will have enough free chlorine to sanitize your water. No one will be poisoned.

There is excellent science behind our recommendations!

Pool Water Chemistry

This thread presents my findings so far on pool water chemistry including the following: More Accurate Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) to replace Langelier Saturation Index (LSI) Calculation of ppm HOCl (disinfecting chlorine) at various levels of Total Free Chlorine (FC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA)...

www.troublefreepool.com

Wow. Pretty much all titration kits I find in the market measure up to 2-3 ppm chlorine. Is the entire industry messed up? How am I suppose to even measure 5 ppm?