Harmonic noise from newly installed RayPak 366A NG

[JoyfulNoise]

Wow! What a saga … all that run around for something as simple as adjusting the factory installed gas valve. You’d think Raypak support would know a little bit more about their equipment and design. Turns out the field repair guys know more than the manufacturer does . I guess that’s just a good reminder that there’s how things behave in the lab (theory) versus how they behave in the field (practice) and sometimes the two just don’t line up.

I didn’t look back but I want to say there was an earlier post from someone regarding adjusting the gas valve.

Hey @ajw22 … any of this tale of woe worth an honorable mention in the Wiki article on Raypak heaters?

I wonder if using something like a mechanics stethoscope (https://a.co/d/86Aexmw ) would have helped to locate the sound better and maybe pinpoint it to the gas valve?

 

[JamesW]

Gas pressure was within limits.

Raypak had us remove UVG and then run heater and sound gone.

The other thing is that if not running with UVG then no sound but that’s just for diagnostic purposes.

Part of the problem is that we are getting conflicting information.

The gas pressure is reported as good.

The problem is reported as gone when the UG is removed.

A gas pressure issue won't be fixed by removing the UG.

A minimum of 6 in. WC and a maximum of 10.5 in. WC upstream pressure under load and no-load conditions must be provided for natural gas.

A minimum of 12 in. WC and a maximum of 13 in. WC are required for propane gas under load and no-load conditions.

Gas Pressure Regulator

The gas pressure regulator is preset at 4.0 in. WC for natural gas, and 10.5 in. WC. for propane gas.

The pressure at the gas valve, taken with a manometer, should be about 4.0 in. WC natural gas and 10.5 in. WC propane gas.

If an adjustment is needed, remove seal and turn adjustment screw clockwise to increase pressure or counter-clockwise to decrease pressure.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AWSProd/sites/raypakcom/documents/241236.pdf

It turns out Ray packs off-line when they come to be installed notoriously have the gas setting way too high, even though it doesn’t give you a fault.

I am not sure that that is true.

How high was the pressure?

Why is the pressure reported as "within limits"?

Maybe you have a propane unit or maybe the upstream pressure is way too high.

Overall, the information provided is insufficient to make any definite conclusions.

Gas pressure reported as "good" or "within limits" is not as useful or as believable as reporting actual readings.

In any case, hopefully, you have the problem solved and the unit will work well for you from now on.

 

[ajw22]

Hey @ajw22 … any of this tale of woe worth an honorable mention in the Wiki article on Raypak heaters?

The explanation is too vague for someone to repeat it. I do not want to encourage people to be adjusting gas pressures on their own.

 

[JamesW]

I seriously doubt that the gas valve was set incorrectly.

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t.

What was the gas supply pressure for static and dynamic?

What was the manifold pressure?

You need real actual numbers, not reports of “Ok”, “good”, “within limits” or other vague undefined metrics.

Without these numbers, all you have is someone making adjustments until a problem seems to go away.

 

[Crani07]

Wow! What a saga … all that run around for something as simple as adjusting the factory installed gas valve. You’d think Raypak support would know a little bit more about their equipment and design. Turns out the field repair guys know more than the manufacturer does . I guess that’s just a good reminder that there’s how things behave in the lab (theory) versus how they behave in the field (practice) and sometimes the two just don’t line up.

I didn’t look back but I want to say there was an earlier post from someone regarding adjusting the gas valve.

Hey @ajw22 … any of this tale of woe worth an honorable mention in the Wiki article on Raypak heaters?

I wonder if using something like a mechanics stethoscope (https://a.co/d/86Aexmw ) would have helped to locate the sound better and maybe pinpoint it to the gas valve?

Wasn’t the valve making the harmonics. It was flames to hot boiling the water faster than it could move through the system. The harmonics are from the coils. We knew what was causing the noise just not the solution.

 

[ajw22]

What color are the flames in the burner?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Wasn’t the valve making the harmonics. It was flames to hot boiling the water faster than it could move through the system. The harmonics are from the coils. We knew what was causing the noise just not the solution.

So it would seem that @JamesW ‘s previous comments about the UG not being adequate hold true. It seems Raypak’s design of their header manifold and heat exchanger along with their choice of UG causes the heater to potentially have inadequate water flow.

Seems like a poor design on the part of Raypak.

 

[JamesW]

It was flames to hot boiling the water faster than it could move through the system.

Boiling would be a banging noise.

Whistling can come from the air and gas moving through the orifices and slots too fast.

Can you show the whole heater and associated gas plumbing?

Maybe you have the wrong heater or maybe you have 2 psi service to the heater?

 

[ajw22]

. Seems like a poor design on the part of Raypak.

We have many folks with this model Raypak heater. If it was a design defect we would be hearing about this often.

So far this is a single instance. Maybe this heater is a lemon. Or something is weird in the installation.

I am not ready to tar Raypak yet.

 

[JamesW]

Is this regulator new?

This indicates that you probably have 2 psi from the meter to this regulator.

What is the pressure rating from the regulator label?

 

[JamesW]

Did the installer get a permit for the installation?

Is the installer even qualified to install gas appliances?

 

[Crani07]

I seriously doubt that the gas valve was set incorrectly.

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn’t.

What was the gas supply pressure for static and dynamic?

What was the manifold pressure?

You need real actual numbers, not reports of “Ok”, “good”, “within limits” or other vague undefined metrics.

Without these numbers, all you have is someone making adjustments until a problem seems to go away.

I completely agree with what you are saying. The biggest problem is being able to confirm all of the above. The tech line at RayPak for the service or installers seemed useless. Now I do have a warranty claim in and Raypak has authorized for one of their service people to come out but the closest one is 90 miles away. I’ve called them all and they will not make the trip. Raypak then said I can find someone locally they will reimburse for costs. There are pool service people around however if they don’t specialize in this unit I feel they Will potentially cause more harm than good. So that’s where it stands and not sure how to proceed to verify those numbers. The installer of the unit did use a manometer for both upstream and demand and had said everything was in spec base on WC for my unit. I guess I could purchase another UVG and set gas back to its original settings and see if harmonics gone????

 

[Crani07]

Is this regulator new?

This indicates that you probably have 2 psi from the meter to this regulator.

What is the pressure rating from the regulator label?

View attachment 498955

Yes put in yesterday.

 

[Poolbreh]

It couldn’t be confirmed unless you posted
Manifold pressure before and after adjustments.

 

[JamesW]

Yes put in yesterday.

Who installed this regulator yesterday?

Was it a replacement?

 

[Crani07]

Yes put in yesterday.

2psi

 

[oldprophet]

Just had my Jandy Laars replaced which worked great for 15 years until LCD display went out. Had a new RayPak installed all went fine we ran the heater for about 30 mins produced heat, no noises. Went to fire it up last week and within about a minute it was haunted harmonic sounds. Ive gone through everything that Ive researched. Have great water flow have back washed cleaned filters. Yes variable speed but running it at full. 1 3/4 HP 1.5" PVC. I had the installer come out we looked at universal governor and did temp test and it moved. The gasket was twisted so got it back on square with plumbers silicone. It may have improved slightly but had him order new UVG and gasket just to be sure. When my gas line was being tested prior to install they said I had very good high PSI and could run a bunch of these units. As part of my diagnostics I went to the manual shut off on gas line and slowly turned it down to a point the noise went away, still producing heat (not sure if enough) did not get any flame errors or anything on LCD to say there was an issue. The second thing I tried was to go to one of my fill lines to the pool and slowly shut the valve and that also worked but I could hear my pump straining.
So I'm wondering when I replace the UVG and does not improve would you then take a manometer the the regulator to double check that PSI is in range. Im very confident its not a pump flow issue. The interesting thing is iwt ran great its first 30 mins of life then week later this started. The noise is not soft and loud and annoying. I understand it comes from steam being generated in the coppert coils and not enough water feeding the rate its burning. Needless to say we are not using the heater just to be safe that I don't cause further problems. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you!

In Raypak heaters y me that groaning sound is almost always the universal governor

 

[Crani07]

In Raypak heaters y me that groaning sound is almost always the universal governor

I’ll purchase another will be 3rd one

 

[JamesW]

Who installed this new gas pressure regulator?

This is a very important detail.

Did it replace and old regulator or was there no gas pressure regulator?

If there was no regulator, then you had 2 psi directly to the heater?

Was the old gas pressure regulator defective?

Excessive input pressure can explain the problem.

Can you show all writing on the gas pressure regulator?

I suspect that the person who reported the gas pressure was good had no idea what they were talking about and probably never tested anything.

People who know what they are talking about can tell you actual numbers for what the metrics should be and for what they are.

 

[Crani07]

Who installed this new gas pressure regulator?

This is a very important detail.

Did it replace and old regulator or was there no gas pressure regulator?

If there was no regulator, then you had 2 psi directly to the heater?

Was the old gas pressure regulator defective?

Excessive input pressure can explain the problem.

Can you show all writing on the gas pressure regulator?

I suspect that the person who reported the gas pressure was good had no idea what they were talking about and probably never tested anything.

People who know what they are talking about can tell you actual numbers for what the metrics should be and for what they are.

Yes it replaced the one that was already there for my old Jandy heater. They showed on the manometer the numbers were not holding on the inlet side. Up and down. They are certified plumbers and gas supposedly. They did not charge me for the change out do to how long this has been going on. I had purchased a digital manometer but they had their own. When I have time later I will check the current readings on supply and demand and get numbers based on how I currently have it set. I am getting ready to order a new UVG and internal bypass kit. Figure might as well have extra if needed. My system based on all the paperwork from Raypak is NG. I have no other way to verify that.