Winter Scale Build Up?

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B

bbdude

Gold Supporter
Jul 20, 2017
294
Buffalo, NY
Pool Size
28000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Hi All - Closed my gunite pool in October and opened in April. Upon opening my pH was high, probably in the 9s. It was 7.2 or so at closing. Our winter was relatively mild so not sure if that had anything to do with the pH.

We have swimming temps right now, but my kids are complaining the pool is rough. It’s cutting their feet. I got in and it’s rough, maybe like you’d experience in a commercial pool or waterpark. Not terrible to me personally but I can see how it might cut a child’s foot if they’re in there for hours.

Prior to closing my gunite was really really smooth.

1 - Will the roughness gradually go away over the summer?

2 - Should I be using a steel brush each day? At least for the more shallow end.

3 - What should I do to prevent this getting worse this winter? I am overly focused on my chemicals and keep them right while opened.
 
Can we start by taking a look at your full test results.

Take a look at a couple articles. You might be able to mitigate some of the scaling by maintaining CSI in the -0.30 to -0.60 range.

www.troublefreepool.com

Calcium Scaling

Calcium scale on your pool is something we all want to avoid. With some elbow grease and a pumice stone for pools we can help you remove this eyesore.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

www.troublefreepool.com

Calcium Saturation Index (CSI)

How is CSI calculated? Very simple – use our PoolMath tool. To ensure long plaster life and save money, click here to learn more.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

I'm no expert, but maybe we can get you some help.
 
Running a CSI close to -1 may melt he scale off by the end of the season. It will be difficult keeping your CSI so low as the water warms.

Brushing will not get the scale off.

Polishing the plaster with diamond pads either by hand or with a power tools will remove the scale. Read Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

The Borate Pool Opening in Aqua Magazine discusses how borates can limit pH rise while a pool is closed for the winter. High pH while a pool is closed can cause scaling. For those that find their pools with very high pH at Spring opening borates may benefit with the pool open or closed

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
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Appreciate all the feedback, but disappointed it doesn't sound like there's anyway to really avoid the scale. Even if it's fixed by end of summer, there's a good likelihood it will happen again this winter.

Rancho Cost-a-Lotta said:
Can we start by taking a look at your full test results.
Click to expand...
FC - 5.0
TA - 60
CYA - 60
pH - 7.5
CH - 300
Salt - 3400
Temp - 79
CSI - (0.60)
 
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bbdude said:
Appreciate all the feedback, but disappointed it doesn't sound like there's anyway to really avoid the scale. Even if it's fixed by end of summer, there's a good likelihood it will happen again this winter.
Click to expand...

Probably not if you add borates to the water.

bbdude said:
FC - 5.0
TA - 60
CYA - 60
pH - 7.5
CH - 300
Salt - 3400
Temp - 79
CSI - (0.60)
Click to expand...
Run your ph at 7.2 and try and keep it there for a lower CSI.
 
Thank you. CSI right now is -0.50 so trying to slowly bring the pH down from 7.5. Is there anything else I can do to bring CSI down besides lower pH? Obviously I also don't want my TA to drop.

I've been noodling on this a bit and just fail to understand what went wrong. Here's a timeline after I reviewed my PoolMath logs.

August 2022 - Pool opened. I didn't have a test kit and had no idea what I was doing. I never tested or added anything.
October 2022 - Pool closed.
May 2023 - Pool opened and gunite was totally smooth. I bought a test kit and my first test was right after pool opening. My pH was above 8.2, TA was 130, CH was 100, and CYA was 40. By July my pH was steady at 7.8, TA was 80, CH was 400, and CYA was 80.
October 2023 - Pool closed. At closing my pH was still at 7.8, TA was 70, CH was 400, and CYA was 70.
April 2024 - Pool opened and gunite was really rough. At opening my pH was 9+, TA was 80, CH was 300, and CYA was 50.

So do you think maybe pH wasn't settled at 7.8 so once I closed the pool it skyrocketed without MA additions? Or maybe it was due to a higher TA?

Obviously, I don't understanding how the gunite was fine last winter and a mess this winter.
 
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Nothing went wrong. You did not do anything wrong.

We had a very different winter climate last year. You can't control the climate and the water chemistry when the pool is closed.
 
ajw22 said:
Nothing went wrong. You did not do anything wrong.

We had a very different winter climate last year. You can't control the climate and the water chemistry when the pool is closed.
Click to expand...
I read the article you shared from AQUA and it's a little technical for me. If I'm reading it correctly, it suggests adding Borates as a buffer to prevent a significant increase in PH during winter closing.
  1. Add Borax at a rate of 3.3 pounds per 10,000 gallons for a 10 ppm increase in TA.
  2. Add Muractic Acid afterward to bring the pH back into check.
Today, my TA is 60 and my calcium hardiness is 350. What's not clear from the article is should I only add enough Borax to get my TA up to 70? Is this enough of a buffer to prevent winter scale?
 
bbdude said:
I read the article you shared from AQUA and it's a little technical for me. If I'm reading it correctly, it suggests adding Borates as a buffer to prevent a significant increase in PH during winter closing.
  1. Add Borax at a rate of 3.3 pounds per 10,000 gallons for a 10 ppm increase in TA.
  2. Add Muractic Acid afterward to bring the pH back into check.
Today, my TA is 60 and my calcium hardiness is 350. What's not clear from the article is should I only add enough Borax to get my TA up to 70? Is this enough of a buffer to prevent winter scale?
Click to expand...

It is better to use Boric Acid from Duda Diesel then Borax and Muriatic Acid to add borates.

You need to get at least 50ppm of borates in your pool to have an effect.

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
Following this thread because I had a similar experience upon opening this Spring as OP, bbdude. Our roughness is mostly on our spa benches, so swimsuits catch on it, as opposed to being rough on feet. I guess I have some reading to do!

bbdude, have you done anything yet to get rid of the roughness? If so, have you had any success?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, so if I should start my own, please let me know.
 

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pwa2003 said:
Following this thread because I had a similar experience upon opening this Spring as OP, bbdude. Our roughness is mostly on our spa benches, so swimsuits catch on it, as opposed to being rough on feet. I guess I have some reading to do!

bbdude, have you done anything yet to get rid of the roughness? If so, have you had any success?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, so if I should start my own, please let me know.
Click to expand...
No worries! Going out to buy Borates now. Going to try and follow the thread about Borates. Buying some today if I can find it somewhere from Duda Diesel. I have a 30k gallon Gunite pool so going to start by adding 10 pounds and see if that gets me to 10ppm increase in TA and then reassess.

I'm struggling with the price a bit ... is this the right stuff, @ajw22 ? $23 for 5lbs and if I need 10 pounds for 10ppm increase that's $50. That means to get to 50ppm I'm looking at $250! However, it seems Borates will stick around so should help control pH more down the road.
 
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bbdude said:
All at the same time? That's a relief!
Click to expand...

Don't dump the bucket in. Use a scoop and walk around the pool and toss the boric acid on the top of the water. Should just take a few minutes to add.
 
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Reading a little more about adding Borates and looks like the thread you shared suggests 30 oz. per 1000 gallons to neutralize the pH rise of 50 ppm due to the borates? For a 28,000 pool this would be 840oz of MA or 6.5 gallons. Is my math checking out? That's a ton of MA.

Then we add HALF of the MA, then HALF of the borax, allow it to mix for 30 mins or so, then add remaining half of MA and borax? Or is the stuff from Duda pH neutral?

Can people swim in the pool during this process or should we wait a day or two?
 
Added the borates this morning. Just waiting for my taylor borate test strips to arrive. Thanks for the assist everyone!
 
I had already ordered the test strips and the drop test seems a little over involved for me. Here’s what I got back. Hard to really tell, but seems I’m in the 30-50 range, which is the goal?

IMG_6759.jpeg
 
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