Where has all the salt gone?

[ajw22]

I just drained an inch of water from my pool.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I just drained an inch of water from my pool.

I'll get out there when the rain lightens up! I'm not adding any more salt until I get the pool to the correct level. I bought 3 more gallons of chlorine this morning since it's going to be raining all week and that SWG is probably NOT getting turned on!

 

[Ibelyle]

No, it's an AG pool and the only drain is the skimmer oozing. This skimmer kind of locks into place vs our old skimmer which just sat on top, both were/are Hayward. My water is sitting at the top of the skimmer opening and when it's not raining I see water dripping from the bottom of the piping at the skimmer and it is at the top of the finger hole. Other than the oozing I am not losing water and haven't had to fill the pool since startup. I have been waiting to vacuum the pool and backwash the filter (filter is sitting at 17 PSI which is the same as startup).

Last night and this morning I attributed both readings to possible non mixing of water types, not sure how much mixing is needed. Could my reagents be bad? Yes they could but they sit in a dark, coolish basement inside their blue Taylor box. I bought them last July from tftestkit and their dates are OK, one is in 2024 and one is 8/2023. I don't think reagents go bad quickly after their "use by" date.

This is the first year of ever using salt, I want to develop the knowledge to feel confident that having a SWG was/is worth it. I'm not new to testing the TFP way, been doing it forever but this has thrown me for a loop.

What everyone is saying that there was more rainwater than I expected is probably true. I expected my first salt reading that I started this thread to be around 2000 not 1200 or 1400. I expected this morning's reading to be 2600 or 2800 not 2200. But again I have no clue how much rain fell and water oozed out.

How much water was taken out when the pool was closed last fall? How much rain, snow fell in the meantime. What kind of cover, if any? If solid tarp, did you pump off the collected water or dump it in the pool?

 

[VinnyinNJ]

How much water was taken out when the pool was closed last fall? How much rain, snow fell in the meantime. What kind of cover, if any? If solid tarp, did you pump off the collected water or dump it in the pool?

We opened it mid May, put in enough water to get to the top side screw on the Hayward wide mouth skimmer, added salt but have been using Liquid chlorine as I bought 4 gallons thinking I would need to fight something that happened through the winter - NOPE! I just used the last of it yesterday but bought 3 more until I get this SWG going. I did backwash my filter once early in the season just to see how much crud it got, I think I added water then. I have a blue solar cover on, here in Jersey we have had a lot of rain and the only draining is the oozing of water from the skimmer, the water level is at the top frame of the skimmer hole where the weir is. Other than rain, I have not added water. I am using the Taylor salt drop test kit.

Other than maybe the reagents went bad I really think the problem is me! I am expecting the salt to act like chlorine where my levels don't change drastically. I know I put 120 lbs of salt at startup and had around 3000 PPM then. I didn't pay attention to the rain oozing because I needed to use that chlorine. Since I was on my last bottle it was time to gear up the SWG so first thing is salt - found lower salt than anticipated, put 1-40 lbs bag in and read slightly higher (lower than what pool math said but I got more water than the 13.5 K gallons) a couple days later. Put approximately 3 1/2 bags of salt in and let it mix for 2 days but it rained again before I read the salt reading. I'm thinking it's more me than reagents because I don't have a handle on salt yet. If my pool gets X inches of rain salt will get diluted and as it oozes out - there it goes. Then as we get more X inches of rain - repeat. My FC readings have stayed steady through all this so I'm equating the 2 and I'm probably wrong in that assumption.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I just went out there and drained about 2 inches of water out of the pool so there should be no more oozing, I suspect with the weather forecast there will be some more draining coming soon!

 

[VinnyinNJ]

OK, this salt thing has officially kicked my butt! My SWG is just a paperweight at this time. I tested the salt 11 days ago and it was 1800, I added salt to raise it and it was 2400 9 days ago which is too low for my SWG, Tested 2 days ago before adding any more salt and it was 2200 - OK it's in that margin of error - GREAT! I added between 50 to 60 lbs of salt 2 days ago and tested today and I'm over 4000 in salt. Pool Math read it would bring my salt approx up 450 (50 lbs) to 530 (60 lbs) even if it was 70 lbs that's only 620 PPM ... I was expecting a reading of 2600 to 3000 PPM. I surrender!!!

 

[Pauls234]

So when you closed last winter you did not drain a few inches below the lowest return? For me that's around 25% so CYA and salt will be down by at least that much. I know plenty in the North just use a skimmer plate and plug and not drain with no issues. I always plan to, but then chicken out.

Which did you do? And did you cover with mesh or solid cover for the winter?

Regardless though there seems to be something going on that is not adding up based on the latest results.

Bad regents seem highly unlikely given the age and how you stored them.

Double check that you are following testing procedure correctly, be deliberate.

Clean the testing vial with bleach or rubbing alcohol to rule out something that may be interfering with the test.

The salt test is actually a little different than other drop tests in that you aren't waiting for the final color change but the gross looking milky salmon color that happens just after the yellow.

It's gotta be something with the tests or more water replacement than assumed so checking some of the less common items.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

So when you closed last winter you did not drain a few inches below the lowest return? For me that's around 25% so CYA and salt will be down by at least that much. I know plenty in the North just use a skimmer plate and plug and not drain with no issues. I always plan to, but then chicken out.

Which did you do? And did you cover with mesh or solid cover for the winter?

Regardless though there seems to be something going on that is not adding up based on the latest results.

Bad regents seem highly unlikely given the age and how you stored them.

Double check that you are following testing procedure correctly, be deliberate.

Clean the testing vial with bleach or rubbing alcohol to rule out something that may be interfering with the test.

The salt test is actually a little different than other drop tests in that you aren't waiting for the final color change but the gross looking milky salmon color that happens just after the yellow.

It's gotta be something with the tests or more water replacement than assumed so checking some of the less common items.

I drained to just under the return, I used an Aquador skimmer plate (it's like a Tupperware lid for the pool skimmer) and a return plug in the return, took the pipes off and emptied the filter. Typical closing for me except hard piping vs hoses that I had in my last pool. Used a solid winter cover and did have to drain the cover a few times over the winter when the ice thawed.

I opened the pool middle of May, did my typical testing and adjusting and had bought 4 gallons of 12% LC before opening the pool because I thought I would need to SLAM the pool or at least run high chlorine for a few days - nope, I opened my pool and it still had some chlorine in it from over the winter. I threw a gallon of chlorine in for good measure. I didn't log it but if I remember correctly I put 3 bags of salt in at opening and my reading fluctuated between 3200 and 3000 for a few days and then settled at 3000 - GREAT but I still had 3 more gallons of chlorine to use. My pool is covered with a solar cover and I get really no evaporation and my pool uses very little chlorine with the cover on so since I had the LC I was using that - no reason to test salt. We had a lot of rain here in Jersey and I obviously wasn't paying attention to the salt and dilution/ water coming out of the pool. My skimmer is a Hayward and it slides closed to "lock" it into place so the water doesn't splash or gush out like my old skimmer it just oozes out. I got down to my last bottle and I decided I should get the SWG ready for use that's when I saw how little salt was in my pool so I added the salt without draining the pool to the proper skimmer level, we had more rain that's when I drained the pool to the proper level (just under the top screw on the side where I always have put the water level), measured salt and got the reading of 1800 so I added salt to 2400. I have been busy so I didn't add any more salt until Friday and added a bag and a half of salt. Per pool math it should have added approximately 550 PPM. Aquatrol needs 2600-3200 PPM to work. When I put the salt in I sweep it around back and forth to dissolve it and don't stop until it appears to be all gone.

Something I do religiously when testing the water is rinse the vials with pool water around elbow level deep a few times before and rinse with pool water after testing so the vials should be clean. This drop test is fairly simple, do I actually have 10 ml exactly every time - no, I doubt I hit 10 ml ever so there is some error but it's close enough. Newdude mentioned maybe the vials aren't dropping properly so I made sure the tips were clean using my t shirt to wipe them down. So 10 ml sample, 1 drop R630 (?) and then drop wise with the other until the vial turns to a milky salmon color.

Other than the water not mixing well or the reagents being bad I'm at a loss. I've never had bad reagents especially since they are in date but it could be the reagents. My skimmer is sucking surface water (solar cover is still on) and there is a strong circular flow in the pool, I have my return pointing down and away from the skimmer. I see my thermometer that is attached to the ladder moving around in the current. I don't know how after 2 days with the pump running 13 hours per day that the water wouldn't be mixed but it's a possibility. In all the years we've owned an AG pool I've never ran into a problem like this - very strange. Then again I have no experience with salt water pools and maybe I am overlooking something even with the test being simple!

I should add - I did have it running last year for 3 days before closing our pool (pool was set up a week before Labor Day) and I watched the pool guy add the salt - into the skimmer - and I was able to measure salt accurately ... I think!

 

[Pauls234]

I don't see anything you are doing wrong in your process.

I'm in my 12th pool season, but only 2nd with an SWCG. Like most on this forum experience, it makes things almost boringly easy. (It drove me to add borates just got fun!) We'll get you there.

I know you've read all the articles and are on the forum but just a few reminders.

Salt is similar to CYA in that its presence is pretty stable and can only be reduced by water exchange. And also that there can be a lag from when it looks dissolved to you and when it shows on the test.

With the partial drain over winter and all of the rain there are plausible explanations for the erratic levels if salt you are testing.

As I said, I don't see anything you are doing wrong. I'd move on and keep reporting results here.

Most important, what is your SWCG say about the salt levels? Is it reporting hi salt error or generating as it should?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Confirm you're using the correct 10 mL sample size. Using a 25 mL sample with the incorrect multiplier will cut the result by more than half. It's a common mistake.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

@Pauls234 thanks for reaffirming my testing. I believe that at least 26 hours of filtering with a strong current should mix water well. I was thinking that there was a possibility that my skimmer was not sucking the top layer of water when the water level was at the top of the skimmer, but at this point it does. I make sure that I don't test the water right away and give it time to mix.
@Rancho Cost-a-Lotta I use the vile that comes in the salt kit and do check that it is close to 10 ml, usually slightly over or under... never perfect. I'm looking for an "about" number so a 3000 reading can be anywhere from 2800 to 3200.

This is totally blowing my mind!

 

[randytsuch]

Maybe try running test twice in a row, see if you get consistent results.

Do you have a speed stir? Makes this test soo much easier to do. Same for FC test.

How much salt have you added this season, total?

Randy

 

[VinnyinNJ]

Maybe try running test twice in a row, see if you get consistent results.

Do you have a speed stir? Makes this test soo much easier to do. Same for FC test.

How much salt have you added this season, total?

Randy

The last test I did it twice and both times I stopped at 21 drops. I believe I did test twice a second time.

After 20 years of testing water I have almost perfected the wrist swirl. I get pretty consistent readings usually but apparently not with salt!

Bags of salt - 3 in May at startup, then got a surprise reading which may have been from all the rain and water oozing so I added 4 1/2 bags of salt, still a little low so I added 1 1/2 bags. All total9 bags of salt in my pool. Way too much!!! But with all the rain we had and other people pointing to how much in chemicals they also had to add, it made sense somewhat.

When I sweep it back and forth to dissolve I can see water distortion from the salt dissolving and I do it with my filter running. I make sure my filter runs after I dissolve the salt and don't test for around 48 hours maybe even longer. Round pool and water is moving pretty good in it. Could there still be pockets of salt - yes but doubtful or it may be in the middle of the pool vs where I test which is the edge.

I don't want to turn on the SWG so it doesn't fry with all that salt, I've read here that Hayward SWGs do not like high salt concentrations.

At this point I plan on buying more reagents but I'm doubtful it them.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Can you take a long PVC pipe (1/2" or 3/4" pipe) and sample the water at the bottom of the pool. Just use it like a drinking straw - put your thumb over one end, plunge the pipe into the water so that the open end is near the bottom, then release your thumb. As soon as the water rushes out the top, put your thumb back over it, lift/rotate the open end out of the water and then let the water you collected drain into a large container. All the water collected from the pipe is from the bottom of the pool.

Also, get a SpeedStir ... you will kick yourself for not having one for so long ...

 

[Pauls234]

What does your manual say about target ranges for salt for your SCWG? 4000 is near top end of the working range for many SWCGs. The general rule is if your SWCG is happy (i.e. not reporting high or lo salt and generating) then don't worry if your testing shows it a bit higher.

I'm not sure about frying your SWCG with too high of a salt level. I mean, I think it makes sense to leave it off in the midst of an addition or if you are adding a lot be sure and let it mix for a day so there is no chance an extremely concentrated glug of salt water goes through the cell, but I would think several days of mixing 4000ppm salt won't harm anything and if it is too high your SWCG will shut off and report hi salt.

What does the manual say about ideal operational ranges and turning off the cell during additions?

 

[VinnyinNJ]

Can you take a long PVC pipe (1/2" or 3/4" pipe) and sample the water at the bottom of the pool. Just use it like a drinking straw - put your thumb over one end, plunge the pipe into the water so that the open end is near the bottom, then release your thumb. As soon as the water rushes out the top, put your thumb back over it, lift/rotate the open end out of the water and then let the water you collected drain into a large container. All the water collected from the pipe is from the bottom of the pool.

Also, get a SpeedStir ... you will kick yourself for not having one for so long ...

@JoyfulNoise I'll do that. Is it possible for water to be that stratified with a skimmer taking in surface water and the return facing down and a fair amount of moving water? I was going to wait until the end of this season to get next season's testing chemicals but I'll order them now so they should come in by the weekend.

I have never used the speed stir but the thought of taking that pill out of the vial and cleaning it at every test is crazy to me! I just fling the test water onto the grass, file the vial up a few times with pool water while flinging it onto the grass as well ...

 

[VinnyinNJ]

@Pauls234 Here's directly from the manual:

The ideal salt level is between 2700-3400 ppm (parts per million) with 3200 ppm being optimal.
If the level is low, determine the number of gallons in the pool and add salt according to the chart
on page 4. A low salt level will reduce the efficiency of the Aqua Trol® and result in low chlorine
production. A high salt level can cause the Aqua Trol to shutdown and may begin to give a salty
taste to your pool (generally, the salt will begin to be tasted at a level of about 3500-4000 ppm).

What I am concerned about is I've read here on TFP that Hayward SWGs do not like high salt concentrations and draw more current which in turn could burn something in the unit; I believe it's the connection to the cell. I'm trying to avoid any issues with a new unit. My cell has been off this entire season so far so no issues in sucking up a bolus of salty water with it turned on. It doesn't start reading salt until you turn the SWG to on, all it says on the display is 2600 but again it is not turned on.

 

[Pauls234]

I rinse the pill in the vial the same way you described rinsing the vial only so I don't think it will be much extra work and should improve testing consistency.

At this point, it sounds like you are confident in the 4000 reading and don't want to test your SWCG with that high of a salt reading. That's reasonable. You'll need to exchange water to bring the salt levels down to the preferred range.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

I rinse the pill in the vial the same way you described rinsing the vial only so I don't think it will be much extra work and should improve testing consistency.

At this point, it sounds like you are confident in the 4000 reading and don't want to test your SWCG with that high of a salt reading. That's reasonable. You'll need to exchange water to bring the salt levels down to the preferred range.

At this point I'm not confident in the whole process and I am trying to order more reagents .... seems TFTestkits is down or something. I plan on trying what JoyfulNoise suggested with getting water from the bottom to see if that's any different. Some of the readings seemed consistent with salt addition but I don't have a clue what to think. I'm confident in testing, done it for a long time - drop tests are fairly easy- but not salt as this is my first year. Can having a solar cover on all the time cause issues with mixing salt water even though it seems like it doesn't affect other chemicals. Pump is on for 13 hours a day and after almost 2 days it should be 100% mixed in my mind. My ladder which is totally opposite of the filter is causing mixing currents based on my thermometer being pushed away from the ladder and the debris floating by on the floor.

Honestly at this point, I'm at a loss.

 

[VinnyinNJ]

At this point it looks like TFTestkits ordering page is down, I sent them an email so no new reagents yet!