Where does the chlorine go?

Oct 18, 2016
65
Long Valley, NJ
Somewhat new to pool water chemistry. This site is incredibly helpful. I bought the test kit and have had good results so far with the BBB maintenance program.

I have a quick question that I haven't been able to find the answer to.

I understand the concept of FC + CC = TC. I also understand that when FC gets "used to kill things" it becomes CC. But where does the CC go?

Here's a situation:

I got a bit behind on my maintenance over the past week, and noticed cloudy water yesterday morning. Tested and found FC = 0 (water did not turn pink). Used Pool Math to figure out how much bleach to add for a target shock FC of 20, and added that much bleach (859 oz @ 8.25% for a 29K gal pool). The water was noticeably better within hours, and properly clear this morning. I tested again this morning and found FC = 16, CC = 0.5, TC = 16.5.

Where did the other 3.5 PPM go? Does CC get lost to sunlight like FC does?

Thanks.
 
Maybe Chemgeek will chime in here. I've thought about that too - FC eats stuff and makes CC. FC then eats the CC and makes more CC? Maybe when FC attacks things like algae and bacteria it makes CC but then if the FC is adequate it breaks the CC down into something else.
 
Somewhat new to pool water chemistry. This site is incredibly helpful. I bought the test kit and have had good results so far with the BBB maintenance program.

I have a quick question that I haven't been able to find the answer to.

I understand the concept of FC + CC = TC. I also understand that when FC gets "used to kill things" it becomes CC. But where does the CC go?

Here's a situation:

I got a bit behind on my maintenance over the past week, and noticed cloudy water yesterday morning. Tested and found FC = 0 (water did not turn pink). Used Pool Math to figure out how much bleach to add for a target shock FC of 20, and added that much bleach (859 oz @ 8.25% for a 29K gal pool). The water was noticeably better within hours, and properly clear this morning. I tested again this morning and found FC = 16, CC = 0.5, TC = 16.5.

Where did the other 3.5 PPM go? Does CC get lost to sunlight like FC does?

Thanks.
Free Chlorine will be consumed by UV rays (sunlight), as well as when it is oxidizing organic material (including the CC's) in the water.

Why did you target 20ppm for shock level? Were you planning to SLAM then changed your mind?

Losing 3.5ppm of FC overnight (no sunlight) tells me that you have organic material in the pool that the chlorine is oxidizing.
 
Yes, I'm SLAMming the pool. Target shock FC came from this page, based on CYA of 50.

Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart

I started SLAMming yesterday (Sunday) morning, so between the sun during the day yesterday and eating the stuff in the pool, it makes sense that FC dropped from 20 (estimated) yesterday morning to 16 this morning. I will add more bleach tonight and perform OCLT to make sure stuff in the pool is gone.

I'm still confused about my question, though. As I understand it, when FC oxidizes stuff (whether "fresh" stuff or existing CC), it "makes" CC. Once CC is "made," the only way it gets removed from the water (doesn't show up during testing) is by oxidation by the sun?
 
To add to Pat's great response - don't try to make sense of "I put in 5 FC, and now it's 2 FC, so there should be 3 CC". CCs are very volatile and burn off pretty easily, it's not a situation where you can expect to find all of the used chlorine in the CC column. :)
 
From Pool Water Chemistry

Using Up Of Chlorine
Breakdown of Chlorine by Sunlight (UV)
2HOCl --> O2(g) + 2H+ + 2Cl-
2OCl- --> O2(g) + 2Cl-
Chlorine breaks down in the presence of ultraviolet radiation, such as found in sunlight, and forms oxygen gas and chloride ion (and hydrogen ion, if starting with HOCl hypochlorite). Because a hydrogen ion is produced, this is an acidic process, but since disinfecting chlorine is a weak acid, only some of it breaks down in a way that lowers pH as shown above (i.e. only HOCl produces H+; OCl- does not). During the process of chlorine breakdown by sunlight, there are hydroxyl (OH•), oxygen anion (O-•) and chlorine (Cl•) radicals that are also produced as short-lived intermediates (technical details in this post). This can help oxidize organics in the pool.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Can anyone answer where the chlorine atoms go?

They don't go anywhere. The process of oxidation is just chlorine atoms taking two electrons from something and becoming chloride.

Chlorine has 6 electrons in the outer shell and that gives the chlorine atom a +1 charge. In hypochlorous acid you have chlorine +1, oxygen -2 and hydrogen +1 for a net charge of 0. Hypochlorite has a chlorine +1 and oxygen -2 for a net charge of -1.

Chlorine atoms need 8 electrons in the outer shell to have a full shell. So, they take two from something like oxygen or nitrogen to fill their outer shell. This creates chloride with a charge of -1. Electrons each have a charge of -1, so as atoms gain electrons, their charge drops by 1 per gained electron.

A SWG plate has a positive charge that removes an electron from a chloride ion to make it into a chlorine atom with a charge of 0. Two chlorine atoms with a charge of 0 combine to make chlorine gas (Cl2), which dissolves into the water. When chlorine gas dissolves one atom ends up with a charge of -1 (chloride) and the other ends up with a charge of +1 and combines with oxide to form hypochlorite (OH-) or hypochlorous acid (HOCl).

With the outer shell full, the atom has a -1 charge.

In hypochlorite, oxygen has a -2 oxidation state. When the oxygen atom has a full outer shell of 8 electrons, it has a -2 oxidation state. This is its preferred state because it is the most stable state.

When UV light hits a hypochlorite ion, two electrons get knocked loose from the oxygen atom and the chlorine takes them. Oxygen doesn't really want to let them go but chlorine has a strong ability to take electrons.

This causes the oxygen to go from -2 (oxide) to an oxidation state of 0, which combines with another oxygen atom to form oxygen gas. Oxygen gas wants to get back the two electrons to get a full outer shell and it will oxidize something else if it gets a chance.

When oxidizing a nitrogen compound, like ammonia, chlorine again takes 2 electrons from the nitrogen, which changes it from -3 to 0. It takes 3 chlorine atoms to oxidize 2 nitrogen atoms in ammonia.

Ammonia is a chemical compound where the nitrogen is in the -3 oxidation state and there are 3 hydrogen ions in the +1 state. Because they are opposite charges, they combine together in an ionic bond.

When the nitrogen loses 3 electrons, its oxidation state goes to 0 and it can no longer combine with hydrogen to form ammonia. Nitrogen in the 0 oxidation state can combine with another nitrogen atom in the 0 oxidation state because they share electrons in a covalent bond.

This is how ammonia is oxidized into nitrogen gas. The nitrogen goes into the atmosphere and the ammonia is gone. It leaves the hydrogen ions behind, so it is acidic.

CCs are not created by chlorine oxidizing something.

CCs are only created if chlorine "combines" with something.

For example, ammonia is NH3 or NH4. Chlorine can either oxidize the nitrogen or it can replace a hydrogen ion and combine with the ammonia molecule.

Chlorine can replace 1, 2 or 3 hydrogen ions to form NH2Cl (monochloramine), NHCl2 (dichloramine) or NCl3 (trichloramine aka nitrogen trichloride). Nitrogen trichloride is a gas and is what you smell when a pool has a "chlorine" smell. It's also the toxic gas generated if you mix bleach and ammonia. It's not chlorine gas, but it is a chlorinated gas that's highly toxic and even explosive if it is concentrated enough.

Combined chlorine only happens if chlorine combines, not when it oxidizes.

When chlorine reacts with algae, it's usually just an oxidation reaction and no combination occurs.

Plants, such as algae, create chemicals like glucose from carbon dioxide and water. Using light, the carbon in carbon dioxide oxidizes the oxide into oxygen.

6CO2 + 6H2O --> C6H12O6 + 6O2

Carbon dioxide + water--> glucose + oxygen.

This is how plants make oxygen and store energy in sugars. Most of the bulk of plants is carbon from carbon dioxide. Most of the weight of a tree comes from the air.

The carbon in carbon dioxide is in the +4 state.

The carbon in glucose is 4 at 0, 1 at -1 and 1 at +1. The carbon is "reduced", which is the opposite of oxidized. Reduced just means that the oxidation state is lower or reduced because the atom gained electrons which are negatively charged.

When chlorine oxidizes the carbon in glucose back to a +4 oxidation state, it reverts back to carbon dioxide.

This is a similar process to an animal using oxygen to burn sugars to release energy and exhale carbon dioxide.

So, chlorine reacting with algae is mostly an oxidation reaction and not a combination. Algae is mostly converted back into carbon dioxide and water.

Chlorine can combine with carbon compounds, such as methane (CH4) by replacing the hydrogen ions.

Carbon in methane is in the -4 oxidation state.

Chlorine killing algae usually does not create any CCs.

Chlorine lost to UV does not create CCs.

CCs are mostly nitrogen compounds. UV helps break down CCs the same way that it causes hypochlorite to be lost, by knocking the electrons loose from the nitrogen so that the chlorine can more easily take them.

Nitrogen compounds are mostly introduced by bather waste such as urine or sweat.

The only really big source of ammonia is if bacteria eat the cyanuric acid and break it down into ammonia.

So, basically, the process of chlorine oxidizing something is just the chlorine atom taking 2 electrons and becoming chloride. The process of becoming chlorine again is just removing 2 electrons to activate the atom again.

Most of chemistry is atoms gaining or losing electrons and then combining or dissociating based on the oxidation states.

If you want to know the oxidation states of the atoms in a chemical compound, go to wolframalpha and enter the chemical and oxidation states. For example, hypochlorite oxidation states or ammonia oxidation states etc.
 
Yes, the chloride builds up.

3 ppm fc added per day using 12.5% sodium hypochlorite will add about 1,800 ppm salt to a pool in 1 year.

Sodium hypochlorite is made by reacting chlorine gas with sodium hydroxide.

Cl2 + 2NaOH --> NaOCl + NaCl + H2O

3 ppm fc creates 1.5 ppm chloride when the chlorine is reduced to chloride because chlorine is reported in units of chlorine gas (Cl2).

Since there is an equimolar amount of sodium chloride as sodium hypochlorite, you double the chloride amount to 3 ppm.

Since chloride accounts for 60.66% of the weight of sodium chloride, you have to multiply by 1.648 to get weight of sodium chloride.

3 x 365 x 1.648 = 1,804 ppm salt.

The other part depends on the chlorine source. Sodium hypochlorite adds sodium.

Calcium hypochlorite adds calcium.

Trichlor and dichlor add cyanuric acid.

Only chlorine gas would only add chlorine/chloride.

Chlorine gas and trichlor are very acidic, so you would need to add something like sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, sodium tetraborate or sodium bicarbonate to keep the pH and TA from dropping too low.

So, there's about equal parts sodium and chloride added in any case. However, there's no reason that they have to be equal.
 
So if you don’t really drain much water, you could have a ton of salt after a couple years? Wouldn’t that be bad for the pool?
That is what the pool builders would have you believe. But the damage from Salt is very overstated.

There was a member with a non swg pool here I think in Arizona that tested his salt level at over 5000 PPM just from using bleach for multiple years and getting very little water Exchange
 
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.