Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and motors?

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Can someone help find what o-ring I need for this motor?

It sounds like you need a shaft seal, and not an o-ring.

For example, my similar leak above was solved with a shaft seal.
I could have sourced the replacement using a standard 3/4" PS-201 Buna rubber shaft seal (Pentair P/N 37400-0027S) but the upsell was a Viton PS3868 (Pentair P/N 37400-0028S) shaft seal.
In keeping with the trade-size suggestion earlier in this thread, by sourcing trade sizes, instead of Pentair part numbers, I was able to fix my leak using the better Viton seal for about 1/2 the common price of the standard Buna (aka Nitrile) rubber seal.

You may also wish to note though, that the pool stores (e.g., Leslies) will put the shaft seal in properly for you for free - so, they do provide a valuable service if they're local to you.

EDIT: I see you opened a separate thread on this; so I'll jump over to there.
BTW, the divergence of prices is even wider than shown above, if you include the resellers in the mix:

I ended up buying four seals at hottubwarehouse since the price was so good:

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

I realized it's not so easy to source motor bearings by trade size as I had originally thought it would be.
TRADE SIZE: (17x40x12mm, 6203-2RS double seals, buna rubber, chrome metal, no shields, oem = NSK)
There's this little pesky problem of "quality" which appears to be a black art in the bearing industry.
a. Tolerance: ABEC 3 / ISO P6 (but perhaps ABEC 0 / ISO P0 is good enough for pool pump motors).
b. radial play: C3 or P25
c. materials: SAE 52100 chrome or #300-series stainless for the metal and buna or viton for the contact seals

There are at least these manufacturers:
ASK, BCA, Bearings Limited, Bones, Fafnir Torrington, F.A.G., Federal, GBC, Hoover, IKO, INA, KBC, Koyo, Nachi, New Departure, Norma Hoffman, National Precision, NSK, RHP, NTN, NSK, MRC, RHP, SKF, Steyr, Timken, UBC, etc.

Apparently this is one short list of name-brand bearing manufacturers:
ABT, F.A.G, Fafnir, Federal, HRB, INA, LYC, KOYO, NACHI, New Departure, NSK, NTN, SKF, TIMKEN, ZWZ,

And, here's a quick survey of the huge 10x range in prices by trade size:
$1.21 Ebay ABEC3
$1.60 brandx
$1.66 brandx (stainless steel is $10.40)
$1.75 brandx
$1.82 Amazon
$1.99 Amazon vxb
$2.23 brandx
$2.77 brandx
$3.02 brandx
$3.95 Ebay brandx
$4.00 brandx
$4.99 brandx
$5.13 UBC
$5.46 GBC
$5.95 brandx
$12.29 SKF
$14.27 SKF
$14.95 brandx
$18.99 OE

EDIT: Now that I know to aim for a 6203-2RS 52100 chromed steel bearing with Buna-N contact seals with no shields and with an ABEC1/P0 or ABEC3/P6 tolerance rating meeting P25/C3 radial play standards ... I can go *anywhere* to buy the right bearing, as long as these bearing standards are known for the bearings in question.

DOUBLE EDIT: I found out from the auto parts store that there is an additional EMQ or ZV rating for Electric Motor Quality noise standards.
1. EMQ (ZV2) low noise (in CN standard or C3 loose radial play)
2. EMQ2 (ZV3) very low noise
3. EMQ3 (ZV4) extra low noise (usually in P5 tolerance)
http://www.nskf-bearings.com/bearingsha ... rings1.htm

So, the goal is the following electric motor bearing QUALITY:
Size 6203-2RS, 52100 chromed steel, two Buna-N seals, no shields, ABEC3 / ISO P6 tolerance, P25 / C3 radial play, EMQ / ZV2 noise levels preferably NSK-RHPor equivalent brand name.
a. NSK-RHP (made in Japan), 6203VV
b. SKF (made in the USA), 6203-2RS
c. Timken (made in the USA),
d. Koyo (made in Japan), 6203-2RS
e. Nachi (made in Japan),
f. Fafnir, 203PP
g. F.A.G./INA (made in Germany),

 

[RocKKer]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Bocabearings has lots of bearing info

Bought other bearings from them but not for my pump motor.....my stock bearings have lasted 8 years so far, just have to be vigilant for seal leaks.

Have yet to read up on all the info in the thread, thanks for putting it together.

Over the years I have ordered o-rings from O-Rings USA, trade size is the key and once you know thickness and ID, it's not as confusing as it might seem.

Several years ago I bought an o-ring assortment for $8 from Harbor Freight Tools, it has many of the smaller sizes for the pump drain plugs, Jandy Valve, etc. HF is cheap, easy and really convenient if you have a retail store near you. Just checked and they also have a viton assortment.

Edit - I applied anti-seize to my motor thru bolts and they always come out without breaking on me, others too if needed. IDK all the different motor designs but as preventative maintenance before a seal failure and the subsequent corrosion (as well as room permitting), you may be able do this while everything is still installed. Assuming you can get them out without breaking them, do each bolt one at a time, just be sure motor can't power on while attempting this.

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Bocabearings has lots of bearing info

Thanks for the pointer to Boca Bearings because their web site has lots of information, e.g., they give the ABEC tolerance ratings for their bearings (ABEC1 or ABEC3) and the materials (52100 chromed steel or stainless 440C). Their prices are around $10 a bearing and almost all are ABEC1 rated. One new (to me) standard that the Boca site highlighted was the "radial play" or internal-clearance standard (P25 or MC3):

I have ordered o-rings from O-Rings USA, trade size is the key

Thanks for that suggestion.
At O-Rings USA, my Sta-Rite Max-e-glas II seal plate housing o-ring is 80¢ each sourced by o-240 trade size.

At MFP Seals, they seem to be 26¢ each, if I understand the quantity in this chart:

At the O-Ring Store, they seem to be 16¢ each.

And, at O-Ring Warehouse, an easy-to-use calculator comes up with 16¢ per o-ring.

A quick search on the net shows the prices vary from $16 down to $4 at the other places, sourced by U9-228A part number:
Spa & Pool Source = $15.85 <=== that's a deeply slashed price!
Spa Depot = $13.08
US Parts Center = $12.41 <=== another largely discounted sale price!
Your Pool HQ = $10
Polytec pools = $9.95
Price Pool Supply = $9.40
Spa Care = $8
Pool Center = $7.50
Swim CSI = $6.60
Swim n Save = $6
Spas and More = $5
Sears = $4

So, buying by trade size (and not pump equipment part number) makes a huge difference on price!
Larger image: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/132 ... 72550.jpeg

 

[RocKKer]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

What would be interesting to me is what grade are the original bearings? Seems like the OEM grade is good enough, mine have lasted 8 years, so replacing with something higher is not necessary.

The Wikipedia for ABEC scale, gets you some more info on ABEC.

....after reading that it seems like ABEC scale is an american thing -

"It was developed by the Annular Bearing Engineering Committee (ABEC) of the American Bearing Manufacturers Association (ABMA)."

Which seems to infer not every bearing has an ABEC grade. I bet there is some overhead ($$) in an ABEC graded bearing as opposed to one not graded. Buying an ABEC graded replacement might make a difference to some, other's it may not.

One thing for sure is water corrodes an ABEC graded bearing just like a non-graded bearing!

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

What would be interesting to me is what grade are the original bearings?

Most of my motors have already been rebuilt (mostly with the 6203D single-seal bearings) so I also would like to know what folks find in their pristine motors.

I had called AO Smith technical support [actually centuryelectricmotor.com at 800-262-6484] to ask that very same question though.
The woman who helped me was kind, but clueless; so all she could do was read the spec off the diagrams.
She told me the following information for two of my motors:
QC1102 1.65HP motor: 6203 double sealed NSK 6203WC3E CLKEEMSM
SQ1152 2.20HP motor: 6203 double sealed NSK 62032RSGC3ETDEEMS9
Those long numbers at the right are apparently NSK numbers as she said they get all their bearings from NSK.

Knowing what I know now about bearing quality, I can make out the 6203-2RS trade size, plus maybe the C3 radial play standard, but not the EBEC/ISO rating (which I assume to be EBEC3 / ISO P6) nor the EMQ standard (which I assume to be EMQ / ZV2). NSK is one of the top brands by all accounts.

Yet, that same bearing size has multiple equivalents, depending on bearing manufacturer:
6203LLB (NTN), 203PP (Fafnir), 6203-2RS (SKF & Koyo), 6203VV (NSK), 203SZZ (MRC)

Note: Only now does it makes sense that my original post has a photo of my NSK bearing with 6203V stamped on it!

So, my replacement bearings will be:
Trade size 6203-2RS (or equivalent!), 52100 chromed steel, two Buna-N seals, no shields, ABEC3 / ISO P6 tolerance, P25 / C3 radial play, EMQ / ZV2 noise levels preferably SKF, NSK-RHP, or equivalent brand name.

Interestingly, I called two auto parts stores and both had the 6203-2RS bearing in stock, for alternators, at $14 for Autozone and $6.29 for O'Reillys (National PN 203FF).

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

One by one, I'm sourcing the o-rings, but, I ran into a paradox on the U9-374 (trade size o-83) diffuser o-ring.

If I google "U9-374 o-83", I'll get scores of hits, proclaiming that to be the correct trade size.
Yet, in the trade-size charts, there is no standard o-83 or o-083 size? Huh?

That 0-series trade sizes end at o-50 or o-050 in all the standard-size o-ring charts:
1. allorings
2. marcorubber
3. o-rings-size-chart

Does anyone have experience who can explain why this 0-83 trade size diffuser o-ring isn't found in the standard charts?

 

[RocKKer]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Thanks for the bearing info rock!

The O-83 doesn't seem to exist in the o-ring tables. In the past for hard to find o-rings I have ordered replacement o-ring by pump part number and measure what I got, unfortunately you may have to buy a single o-ring at inflated price one last time. You could also take the pump apart and measure and o-ring or groove where it fits to get the size then reassemble.

I should have created a spreadsheet of the standard replacement o-rings for my equipment but I didn't. I've pretty much had all the components apart at one time or another.

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Thanks for the bearing info

We're learning together!
I hope to be able to make a simple summary, at some point in the future, much like the BBB method for pool chemicals.
In doing the bearing research, I found one more tidbit but I need to confirm it, which is that the Pool store commonly sells by AO Smith PN 10000353, the bearing RBL-6203-LL (about $7 each), which seems to cross reference back to the 6203-2RS.

measure what I got

That's a good idea to buy a single pristine o-ring (at inevitably inflated prices) and then measure it to determine the trade size - which drops the price down to mere pennies per o-ring, where it belongs.

It turns out that the 25-inch diameter "cord" ring around the Sta-Rite System 3 Model S8M150 filter tank is also an
odd "Alladin" size of "Alladin O-486". Upon first inspection, this looks like a standard o-ring trade size; but there is no o-486 in the standard inch-size charts!

So, an option is to buy bulk buna-N cord, and then cut and glue the ends together with 100 viscosity cyanoacrylate adhesive (i.e., crazy glue or super glue). Before I can calculate the economics of bulk cord, I need to first measure the thickness of my existing filter o-ring (which is in the filter at the moment) to determine the cost per foot of the cord - but I'm expecting bulk cord to be a lot cheaper than buying this o-ring by pool part number:
Pentair part number 24850-0009:
$27 at the oring store
$33 at amazon
$35 at pool supply world
$40 at your pool hq

I should have created a spreadsheet of the standard replacement o-rings for my equipment but I didn't. I've pretty much had all the components apart at one time or another.

I understand. Without an organization, it's a confusing mess of o-rings sizes; but once organized, the sweet simplicity of it all is that we can order a complete set of replacement o-rings for about the cost of shipping! If I had known this sooner, my pumps would have been much better maintained - and that - we must keep in mind - is the overall strategic goal!

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

A funny thing happened when the "carefully chosen" o-rings arrived. They are all the wrong size!
It (apparently) turns out that the "O-number" system I've been cross referencing is a proprietary standard, used *only* by the Aladdin 1950 company.

So, for example, a 7" Sta-Rite pump basket lid O-ring U9-375 cross references to an Alladin O-12, which is not even close to the AS568 O-Ring size O-12.

An AS568 O-12 actually is this (much smaller) AS568 3/8" o-ring:
* O-12 nominal CS=1/16" ID=3/8" OD=1/2" actual ID=.364±.005" CS=.070±.003"

Measurements of "my" 7" pump basket lid O-ring show it's closer to this standard AS568 size:
* O-439 nominal CS=1/4" ID=6-1/2" OD=7" actual ID=6.475±.040" CS=.275±.006"

Even I had to laugh at myself, thinking: Here's a classic case of what happens when you accept the numbers at face value (and don't double check all sizes with actual measurements!).

In summary, it seems that one company, Alladin, dominates replacement o-rings for pools, and that company uses a proprietary (unpublished?) o-dash numbering system that mimics the standard o-dash numbering system in both look and feel - yet the two numbering systems are (apparently) wholly unrelated!

Given that, we'll need to measure all our old (worn) o-rings, in order to cross reference to the "real" AS568 o-ring O-dash size.

QUESTION:
Given o-rings are squishy and don't form exact circles, what's the best way to *measure* o-rings (enough to match correctly to charts)?

 

[RocKKer]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

Darn, best layed plans....

I do my best to measure the groove they fit in, that gets me close enough. Some pool stores have a countertop chart where they place your old o-ring over a picture and read the size that way.

 

[rock]

Re: Where do you buy your parts for rebuilding pumps and mot

I do my best to measure the groove they fit in

Understood.
At least others can now benefit from what we've learned is a good process:

1. Determine the manufacturer's part number: e.g., Sta-Rite Seal plate housing o-ring, U9-228 (aka U9-228A)

2. Cross reference to the Aladdin o-dash size using this lookup engine: http://www.aladdin1950.com/search.cfm
That results in this $2.46 Aladdin 1-O-240 Seal Plate Housing O-Ring

3. Measure & cross reference to the AS568 o-dash trade size:
That results in this $1.17 AS568 O-449 ACS=275±.000 AID=10±.000 NCS=1/4 NID=10 NOD=10-1/2

Note: To make matters confusing, some web sites cross reference to the Aladdin o-dash number while others cross reference to the AS568 o-dash number.
For example, this site cross references U9-228A to an Aladdin O-240.
Yet, this site cross references U9-228A to the AS568 O-449.

Like BBB pool chemistry, it's easy, once you know not to be confused by the subterfuge!

BEST PRICES:
1. http://oringwarehouse.com
2. http://theoringstore.com
3. http://www.manuf-rubber.com

GOOD PRICES:
4. http://mfpseals.com
5. http://www.oringsusa.com
6. http://www.onlineorings.com

WORST PRICES:
7. http://www.inyopools.com
8. http://www.hottubworks.com