What should I do during and after a storm?

[roguegeek]

Where did you read that? Certainly not here

Chlorine has nothing to do with turbidity and it will not directly cause turbidity.

That was a new word I had to look up. No, it wasn't from here that I heard it. Ok, that helps a lot. Thanks.

 

[roguegeek]

I figure I'd just respond to this post rather than start a new one. This happened today...

Test	2017-02-06 6:00 PM	2017-02-07 9:00 AM
Free Chlorine (ppm)	12.0	5.0
Combined Chlorine (ppm)	0.0	0.6
pH	7.4	7.4
Total Alkalinity (ppm)	60	60
Calcium Hardness (ppm)	180	170
Cyanuric Acid (ppm)	35	35
Sodium Chloride (Salt, ppm)	2000	2000
SWG Instant Salt (ppm)	2000	2000
Temperature (F)	59	58

It was absolutely crystal clear yesterday. Then we had a ton of rain last night. I would have thought that with FC at 12 ppm and CC at 0 ppm, it would have fought it off, but I guess I was wrong. I was going to address CYA today as well, but I thought it could have gone ONE night without getting here. It's now measuring FC at 5 ppm and CC at 0.6 ppm and the pool is entirely green again. WTH?

Well, I guess I'm starting a SLAM all over again. pH to 7.0. CYA to 60 or 70. Then FC to 28. At least I know exactly what to do now, thanks to all of you.

I guess the lesson learned is that I should have had FC even higher than where I had it when I know a big storm is hitting overnight as well as just keeping on top of general balancing (ie. CYA being too low), right? Had these been done, this would have definitely been avoided?

 

[Analogbytes]

pH to 7.0

Why? pH and TA look fine.

[EDIT] Also note, adding stabilizer will lower pH[/EDIT]

 

[roguegeek]

Why? pH and TA look fine.

Read the thread for reference. This was the consensus recommendation and it worked. In any case, I'm not concerned about how to do the SLAM. I have that covered and was very successful with it last time.

My questions are about prevention at this point. I was told to just overcompensate the FC when I knew lot of rain was going to hit and high wind was going to dump a lot of debris. Apparently, FC at 12 ppm didn't get it done. Do I need to put it to shock levels (FC at 24-28 ppm) when I know we are going to get hit?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I read the thread but I wanted to make some general comments -

1. A single rain storm should not be able to cause a pool to go green if the proper FC/CYA ratio is maintained both before and during the storm. While I agree that storms can blow junk into your pool, the chlorine present is more than adequate to handle to load. Even a few inches of rainwater typically only represents a few % change in total pool volume and so the dilution will be minimal.

2. Are you really running a T-9 cell on a 22,000 gallon pool? If so, that cell is undersized for your pool volume and, unless you're running your SWG and pump 24/7, you may not be generating adequate levels of chlorine. In other words, if your FC drops because the cell simply can't produce enough FC, then it is possible for algae to get a foothold and start growing especially in areas where the circulation might be poor.

3. Your pool has a unique shape to it and I'm wondering if you have circulation dead spots in the pool that allows for the depletion of FC in those areas even though your testing might show proper FC levels in the bulk of the pool water.

4. When was the last time you opened the filter and cleaned it? Is there any surface water runoff getting into the pool? A dirty or loaded filter can harbor lots of contaminants that can cause increased FC demand and surface runoff into a pool can load the pool up with soil bacteria and algae/mold spores.

Just some thoughts as your predicament is very curious....

 

[needsajet]

Curiouser and curiouser! There pretty much has to be algae harboring somewhere. Great thoughts from Matt as usual, and I'll just add that having your CYA down at 35 (call it 40) is a good thing if you're going to SLAM again. No reason to raise it just now.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

One thing I noticed in the picture of Post #42 - there is water pooling outside the pool at the coping. If there is any infiltration of the water through the mortar joint that bonds the coping stone to the bond beam (and no mortar joint is perfect), then that surface water will leak right into your pool. Stagnant rain water in a "pool" like that near the coping is not a good thing. I would bet that is a very likely source of algae....

 

[bmoreswim]

Not just pooling water, but I'd swear that looks like its almost up to the top of the coping. And there is also what could be a tell-tale debris line there from the water running in. If it is - that's the answer. I get inches of rain and crystal clear. I even do have a small section of may deck that drains into my pool (decking not sloped correctly there) with no ill effects because its not coming from the soil area - only decking.

It's called forensic pool chemistry.

 

[needsajet]

It's called forensic pool chemistry.

Good one!! :eye:

 

[roguegeek]

1. A single rain storm should not be able to cause a pool to go green if the proper FC/CYA ratio is maintained both before and during the storm. While I agree that storms can blow junk into your pool, the chlorine present is more than adequate to handle to load. Even a few inches of rainwater typically only represents a few % change in total pool volume and so the dilution will be minimal.

I would have thought that'd be the case. I have the measurement from last night (three days into the current storm) and the measurement from this morning. Don't exactly know why the FC dropped so quickly.

2. Are you really running a T-9 cell on a 22,000 gallon pool?

Yes, that is correct. It's never been an issue before. It maintains FC just fine when it's on. I don't even run the SWG in the winter because of the low temp.

3. Your pool has a unique shape to it and I'm wondering if you have circulation dead spots in the pool that allows for the depletion of FC in those areas even though your testing might show proper FC levels in the bulk of the pool water.

There absolutely are dead spots in it. I brush them daily, though.

4. When was the last time you opened the filter and cleaned it? Is there any surface water runoff getting into the pool?

Last week was the last time is was cleaned. A month ago when I did the original SLAM, I was cleaning it every day. As for the run off, yes, I do notice outside runoff getting into the pool when it pours like it did last night.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You might want to consider improving the drainage near that side if your pool to avoid runoff problems.


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[needsajet]

Yep, stop the runoff if it has dirt, dust, soil, anything whatsoever in it. Otherwise you're fighting a losing battle.

Good work to be brushing those dead spots every day!! Does the cleaner get to them? That will help refresh chlorine at the boundary between water and plaster as well. So much better when it's constantly refreshed by water movement, but you're sure putting the effort in, well done.

 

[roguegeek]

Yep, stop the runoff if it has dirt, dust, soil, anything whatsoever in it. Otherwise you're fighting a losing battle.

Ok. I'll need to figure out a countermeasure for this. It seems strange that the pool and landscape designers didn't think of proper drainage for something like this. The pool and new landscaping is literally five months old and I've already had to SLAM twice due to what we think may be the same problem. Is this something I should call them out on to address?

Good work to be brushing those dead spots every day!! Does the cleaner get to them? That will help refresh chlorine at the boundary between water and plaster as well. So much better when it's constantly refreshed by water movement, but you're sure putting the effort in, well done.

Yeah, it was very clear there were these dead spots you were talking about from the first week of me taking care of it. I've been very proactive in addressing it manually. Unfortunately, they're in places that are out of reach for the cleaner. That was an adventure in itself and I'll give ya the very quick story on it.

At the default length of line that they cut it at, the cleaner wasn't doing anything for the first four months. It would just tangle up in itself because there was far too much slack. Through a lot of trail and error, I found a length that covers around 85% of the pool very effectively. If it's any longer, it will tangle up and cover nothing. So 85% and me taking care of the left over 15% manually is much better than me having to take care of all of it. Hope that made sense.

I'll try and get a picture of the blueprints so you can see the format of the pool. I think, just from seeing that, it's pretty clear where the dead spots are.

 

[roguegeek]

Ok. So these blueprints aren't really to scale, but I think you'll get the idea. This first one is of the whole property. The trees that are around the North and West sides are great big redwoods and pine. Lots of smaller ones as well. Basically, there's a ton of foliage that falls every day into and around the pool. Add to that the rain and winds from the last couple of storms and you get the idea of the amount of debris I'm always dealing with.

This second image is of the pool and nearby pond. They're more separated than that in real life, but still near each other. The cleaner connects to the North side of the pool. The steps at the South side of the pool and the areas behind the spa don't get coverage from the cleaner. Those are our dead spots.

Just more information for you guys so you can give out the best possible answers. Hope this helps!

 

[needsajet]

It would be reasonable to ask a landscape designer to provide the design for a solution but they probably won't pay for the materials or work. A decent landscaper can probably take a look and give you a price.

I noticed with the one robot I work with that the amount of cable does make a difference. That one improved a bit after I stretched the cable out, relieved the twists, and let it lay in the sun for a day. But it sounds like you've achieved great improvement.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Along with algae, bacteria, mold, etc, the runoff from the new landscaping can add fertilizer to the pool (nitrates and phosphate); essentially, algae food. Phosphates can be chemically removed but nitrates can not. It would be interesting to know if you have elevated phosphate levels and, if you happen to be in the pool store, you could ask them to check it. You don't need to buy anything to correct it but it would be good to know. It could be an indirect way to see how much runoff, if any, has gotten into your pool.

The fix is to dig out that area near the pool wall and add some buried drain pipe to help carry the water away from the pool wall. The area could be constructed like a French drain covered with decorative rock or even landscape fabric and the original soil and mulch to match what's currently there. The buried pipe would need to daylight to a location where the elevation is lower.


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[JoyfulNoise]

After looking at your property and landscape plans, I would suggest running some drainage channels and lines (with the possibility of a dry well installed) from the corner of the pool where the water collects, around the pool and discharged out into the pond that you have on your property (assuming, of course, that are is a lower elevation). You need to move the water that flows down form the wall towards the pool away from the pool. In a very severe rainstorm, all of that landscaping soil could get washed into your pool. A qualified landscape professional could easy install the necessary drainage lines and dry well that you would need.

 

[jmastron]

Chiming in here because you're getting the same (crazy) rainstorms that we are, and I agree with others that surface water draining into the pool is likely the culprit, especially with additional new-landscape chemicals.

I keep FC between ~4-9 (in the winter I add a gallon at a time of 12.5% liquid and it takes a couple weeks to get back to the low end) with a CYA also 30-40, and our pool is clear. And that includes at times leaves that sit on the bottom for a week or more (when the Polaris 280 is overwhelmed by the volume of them) and dirt/debris on the steps that I don't brush as often as I should (because, well, I'm lazy). I have 1960s-era coping with a lip so I don't get any surface runoff into the pool.

Another difference I see is your water temp is close to 60; mine is 49-50 right now. Is that the natural temperature (we do get a bit colder at night here), or are you using/heating the spa and getting some spillover heat? Water temps around 50 should be pretty forgiving of debris/algae formation, but around 60 might be less so.

 

[roguegeek]

Here's a pic of the west end of pool between the pool and the pond. The rain wasn't too hard last night and I had the pool level low enough that it didn't come close to overflowing, but I can see a lot of that black mulch on the concrete and in the pool this morning. I think you guys are right. It's the runoff from the landscape.

Before we had the pool installed, it was just grass and that grass was ALWAYS soaked, even during hot summer months, because of the poor drainage and the runoff from the landscaping in the hills. The landscaping and pool companies knew of this problem, but it doesn't look like it was addressed in the buildout. Alright, I like how we're getting closer to some root causes.

Edit: Yes, that is a dog poo you see.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Wow, that ground is soaked! Unfortunately I have to say you definitely need to get that water out of there. A series of drain pips and dry wells would be really helpful in moving the water somewhere else. The downside is, you'd have to do a lot of tear-up and digging to get the pips and wells properly set, which means lots of manual labor ($$$$). The materials to do all that are cheap, it's all digging and labor needed to get it installed.

The only other thing you could do is take out all of that mulch, try to grade the area a level as you can, and the cover it all with decorative crushed rock. That way, when a big storm hits, you'll still get lots of water but the mulch won't be there to go flying around and into your pool.