What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilling?

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I don't think it matters at all. Nice to know that they have a warranty like that!

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I don't think it matters at all. Nice to know that they have a warranty like that!

Thanks for the help. It's nice to ask someone who has more experience than I do!

BTW, I think I screwed up in my muriatic acid test.

I first chipped off the encrusted (calcium?) sandpaper coating off the stainless steel bezel as shown below:
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Then I dropped it into the clear 29% muriatic acid - it immediately bubbled and turned yellow:
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Assuming therefore the sandpapery coating was calcium, I ran a 5:1 test on a small section of wall for about 30 seconds:
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The results were smooth - but - gray (and definitely not blue).
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What does it look like to you?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

The valve pipe sizes are like this. The smaller number is the PVC pipe size that slips into the valve. The larger number us the PVC pipe size that matches the valve size and requires a coupler to connect to the pipe.

Fewer connections if you get the size where your pipe slips inside.

Posted with Tapatalk ... sorry if I sound short ... hate typing on phone

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Rock, yes, that's calcium scale. Looks like my shorts are not on the menu

There probably is no paint underneath, but blue plaster. If you still have white deposits after your little test acid wash, you would need to go over it again. This is something that can by DIY, but I think that you'll be better off getting a pro to do it. I don't think it's terribly expensive (a few hundred).

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

If you still have white deposits after your little test acid wash, you would need to go over it again.

I agree with you. It bubbled like crazy & turned yellow immediately. Let's call it calcium - your shorts are safe!

As for what's UNDER the calcium - I'm confused because the data points don't line up.

In the acid wash, the plaster appears to be gray underneath which was a shock to me because in other spots of the pool, it was blueer when i washed with the pressure washer.

So the datapoints don't line up.

Maybe it's white calcium on top of spotty blue paint on top of baseline gray plaster?

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

From looking at your pictures, it looks like you have blue plaster and a very thick coating of gray scale. There could be paint, but that's not what it looks like to me.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

From looking at your pictures, it looks like you have blue plaster and a very thick coating of gray scale. There could be paint, but that's not what it looks like to me.

Oh my. I did not realize any of this. Maybe I should call Lifetime Pools to ask 'them' what they did!

Can it possibly be that the gray isn't the plaster but more scale? It sure seems like plaster to me (but then, I've never seen plaster). The scale looked white and granular - but - come to think of it - the chips off the light bezel were gray on the bottom and white on the top.

I'm confused by the mismatched data points ... I need some way to test what the pool actually is - before I try to fix what I don't understand yet.

Note: Searching the forum for "calcium scale", I find this tidbit which I should use moving forward:

If you have high calcium levels, say 400 ppm or better and pH above 7.5 and TA over 120 ppm you are at risk of developing calcium scale. High calcium levels can be managed if you keep the pH and TA on the low end of the acceptable range, say 7.2 and 70 ppm respectively ... when the pool is properly balanced there will be no scale formation.

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Yep, once you get the pool refilled there's lots to learn about water chemistry. Pool School (button in the upper right corner of the page) has all the info you'll need. If you search the forum for "calcium scale" you can find a bunch of pictures from other folks' pools. When it forms on something metal like a light ring, it will be small spheroidal bumps, but it can form a thick uniform coating as well.

Can you post some close-up pictures of the acid washed gray area and the pressure washed blue area? I still don't think there's blue or gray paint, because a pressure washer would blast that right off.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Can you post some close-up pictures of the acid washed gray area and the pressure washed blue area? I still don't think there's blue or gray paint, because a pressure washer would blast that right off.

Thanks for asking and for staying with me on my dilemma of figuring out what is the white, blue, and gray stuff on my pool walls.
I snapped some closeup pictures but I'm still quite confused what I'm seeing as I don't seem to see any 'plaster'...???
What I see are three things:
a) Gray stuff, smooth, and in the small pits are mica crystals
b) Blue stuff, maybe it's paint ... maybe it's copper coatings from the (dark blue) algaecide. Whatever it is, it's paper thin.
c) White sandy stuff ... this is probably calcium since it bubbled greatly in the acid

The wierd thing is I don't see plaster anywhere (if plaster is defined as white stuff).
A) Maybe the gray is the plaster? Or is it the gunnite itself? It seems to be smooth to the edge of the tile whereas I expected a half inch of plaster before hitting gunnite.
B) Maybe the blue is paint? Or is it a copper coating? I can't flake it off, it's that thin.
C) The white is probably calcium as it scrapes off relatively easily. Maybe it's dead algae but it bubbles in hydrocloric acid.

I have a call pending with the pool manufacturer, Lifetime Pools, in Palo Alto, California.

Here are the pics you requested - again - thanks for sticking with me in my hour of confusion!
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[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I called the manufacturer, Lifetime Pools, of Palo Alto California, (650) 494-7070.

Only the admins were available but one said they only have two surfaces:
a) plaster which they call "Tahoe Blue" (which they concede may look gray)
b) or a pebble finish.

They referred me to technical people who weren't available - so I may need to wait for further confirmation; but at the moment, I'm assuming:
1. There is a gray (i.e., Tahoe Blue) smooth plaster coat
2. On top of that is a blue/green (probably copper based) staining from bad pool chemistry
3. On top of that is the ubiquitous sandy white coating (probably calcium based), also from bad pool chemistry

I'm going to repipe the plumbing - but the wife wants the pool started by Mothers Day ... so I don't know if I'll be acid washing after all.

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Yikes, mothers day is tomorrow!

I think your plaster is gray, you have scattered bluish copper stains, and a bunch of calcium scale. An acid wash should remove both the scale and the copper stains. If it's an option, I still think that's the best course of action.
Good luck, and sound like you better hurry! :-D

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I missed the deadline. The Jandy valve arrived - but questions remain about the INLET vs the OUTLET.

First off, looking to see how the original Jandy valves were mounted, I don't understand these (standard?) pool equipment labels.
Q1: What do these blue arrows indicate to you?
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The cracked Jandy valve was mounted vertically but there is precious little room so I may mount the new valve elsewhere.
Q2: Would it matter, functionally, if I mounted the new valve horizontally?
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The new (and old) two-port Jandy valve has one side marked INLET, presumably for the pressure side:
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Yet, the old valves seem to be haphazard. That is, not all the sides marked INLET are actually inlets in the old valves.

Why is that?

Q3: If I flip the cover - does that change which side is the inlet?
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[jblizzle]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

There really is not an inlet on the 2-way. I think you just want to be sure when you are closing the valve that the "CLOSED" side ends up on the "pressure" side ... although actually this may not even be necessary.

What seems odd to me about your picture is that the inlet label is opposite where I would expect it if the valve only turns 90 degrees.

You can take the cover off and turn them around if you like ... does not really change anything.

Oh and it does not matter if they are vertical or horizontal ... looks like you have a lot more room on the horizontal and can make things a little less crowded.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

looks like you have a lot more room on the horizontal and can make things a little less crowded.

Taking the Jandy neverlube apart, I realized if I spin the entire assembly (the cap plus the valve plus the handle which only fits on the valve one way), then the INLET side is the concave inside curve on the far end of the valve so that the water goes from the pump to the valve near-end opening (marked INLET) to the far end of the valve to the concave part of the curved gate and then, by pressure against it, the valve seals shut on little glued-in o-ring materials along the squarish edges of the outside of the curved gate (facing the pool pipes).

So, apparently, spinning the inlet side does work as long as you also spin the curved gate along with it.

BTW, the pool is filling (I decided NOT to wash it this time because the plaster was sitting dry for far too long and it took me far too long to find the answers I needed.

Next time I'll be ready to wash it now that I know the gray is the plaster, the pretty blue is a copper stain, and the scratchy white is calcium grains due to lousy pool chemistry.

Maybe with better pool chemistry, I can actually get rid of the sandy white calcium and pretty blue stain over time without having to re-drain the pool!

Here's a shot of the pool filling up ...
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Here's one of the repaired pipes with the new Jandy valve:
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And, here's a closeup of the re-routing of the pipes:
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I'm not a plumber - I just DIY with your help ... so if you have any final advice on the repair ... let me know so I learn for the 'next' time.

I can't start it up yet (water needs to be at the level of the skimmers) so I won't know if the screw-tight coupling will hold the pressure (50 psi?) coming out of the cleaner pump or not
BTW, the company that makes the blue goop I used told me "pipe" "fitting" "pipe" when putting on the glue. Technical support said the pipe gets twice as much as the fitting does, no matter which part (fitting vs pipe) you have in your hand.

Note: I'm putting the cyanuric acid in as we speak because, without the filter running, it's using chlorine rather fast (being in the sun all day).

 

[jblizzle]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Looks pretty good.

After my statement about the orientation of the Jandy valves with the closed on the pressure side, I looked at my pad and see that ALL of the Jandy valves actually have the CLOSED on the non-pressure side ... so apparently it really does not make any difference. Although you are correct that you can just pull the top off and rotate everything.

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Although you are correct that you can just pull the top off and rotate everything.

Thanks for that update.

Here is a view of the Jandy never-lube two-port valve with the top rotated correctly for the inlet side:
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And, here is the view with the top rotated incorrectly for the inlet side:
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In summary, these appear to be the things I learned about the Jandy valve:
a) The valve is guarranteed for life (I simply showed them a picture of the crack and they sent a new one)
b) It doesn't seem to matter if you get the smaller valve (where the pipe fits OVER the ends) or the larger one (where the pipe fits INSIDE the ends)
c) It doesn't matter much if it's horizontal or vertical but Jandy (aka Zodiac) prefers the horizontal position for leakage prevention
d) It won't matter much if it the two-port valve is hooked up backward - but - the INLET side should be facing the pressure side of the pipes
e) If you do need to flip the valve, Jandy suggests you also flip the top cap and inner valve so that the INLET is maintained
f) The proper orientation is for the pressure side to face the concave end of the flap and the rubber sealed convex side to face the pool

 

[jblizzle]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

I slightly disagree with B.

The valves are designed to have the pipe go into the valve OR match the valve port size and require the use of a coupler.

Fitting a pipe over the valve port would result in a significant area reduction at the valve and increase head loss.

Also having just installed a 1.5/2" and a 2/2.5" 2-way valve (although they were Pentair) the opening inside the valves are significantly different sizes and seem to best match the pipe that slides into the valve. So for least head loss, I would say get the valve that allows your pipe to slide in ... the larger valve is only a few dollars different anyway.

Posted with Tapatalk ... sorry if I sound short ... hate typing on phone

 

[rock]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

The valves are designed to have the pipe go into the valve OR match the valve port size and require the use of a coupler.

Thanks for the correction. I probably misunderstood when it was explained to me by Jandy (when I was choosing the valves).
You are probably right since your explanation (about head loss) makes sense.

So for least head loss, I would say get the valve that allows your pipe to slide in ... the larger valve is only a few dollars

Thanks for the advice. I ended up with the larger valve - so - I'm glad I did.

BTW, the water is almost back up to the skimmers so the 'smoke test' will happen soon.
Any advice on what to do before I 'open' the pool?

So far, I'm chlorinating with liquid chlorine, and sloooooowly dissolving the cyanuric acid in a bucket (and decanting the bucket about 10 times a day).
The pH seems fine (if a bit acidic) at 7.2 and the natural calcium hardness of the well water is 14 grains per gallon (14 x 17.1 = 240ppm).
I need to pressure wash the filter - and then I'm going to power it all up.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

Sounds like you have things under control

 

[Melt In The Sun]

Re: What maintenance would you do with a pool before refilli

It's gonna take you forever to add CYA that way; you're better off using the sock method or just dumping it in the skimmer so it ends up in your filters.

You said above that you didn't find the answers you needed re: acid washing...what do you mean? I think I gave you all of 'em