What constitutes a VERY GOOD Paver?? (Concrete-Stone work)

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
Folks, what should I look for in a good paver that can do either stone work, pavers, concrete, bricks??.......Im in a toss up in deciding what kind of masonary I should do around my pool and outdoor patio area.....I think I like a more traditional bone white concrete with perhaps some sort of pavers around the border...but then again Im not 100% sure.

Can any of you provide some examples of what you may have around your pool?....and more importantly, tell me what criteria I should look for when someone visits me to give me a quote, Are there any basic signals or red flags that I could determine in a discussion even before I look at their work?.....The reason I ask is because I have never seen anyone in the contracting business that ever provides a portfolio or samples of their work and it looks bad. It almost always looks attractive...until you see them doing it on your project....and then its too late!

So, anyone want to provide some feedback on this one?


thanks in advance,

Lori
 

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
BK.....Im going to go vinyl, 14x28. However the builder is still undecided. I havent found a pool builder I trust yet in New Jersey. North Bergen area. Im still getting prices that i feel are a bit too high like 30-32k for the pool, equipment, heater, and cantilevered coping, with cover installed.

I feel I can get it for closer to 25K if I keep searching and perhaps wait until Dec or Jan......what do you think?


thanks for helping me out along the way BK, and everyone else
 

4JawChuck

Well-known member
Jun 13, 2010
223
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Wow thats cheap, that same pool here up north would be closer to 50K finished. Sorry can't comment on pavers, pretty simple business to screw up if you ask me. Not sure I would worry too much about a paver contractor unless you choose the lowest price in the bids...thats usually asking for trouble.
 

kellyj

LifeTime Supporter
Apr 24, 2010
49
Austin, TX
fudgebar said:
BK.....Im going to go vinyl, 14x28. However the builder is still undecided. I havent found a pool builder I trust yet in New Jersey. North Bergen area. Im still getting prices that i feel are a bit too high like 30-32k for the pool, equipment, heater, and cantilevered coping, with cover installed.

I feel I can get it for closer to 25K if I keep searching and perhaps wait until Dec or Jan......what do you think?

Personally, I think your asking for trouble if you look for the absolute cheapest, sometimes it is very true that you get what you pay for. Another old saying is that you can have any two of the following: fast, cheap, or good; but you can't have all three.


thanks for helping me out along the way BK, and everyone else
Don't know much about pavers, other than if you don't plan on having heavy traffic (like vehicles) then it doesn't matter as much.

All the best, Kelly
 

Kev68ss

Well-known member
May 1, 2010
50
Near Nashville TN
bk406 said:
For what you are looking for, 30-32 k is about right. Your not going to find it any cheaper.
In Nashville I purchased a pool from national pool wholsalers for $7,000 online- 20x40 grecian lazy L, dual speed pump, steps, etc..complete. $4500 for install and I buy materials. With 30 yards of concrete decking around pool ($4000) it came to just under $20,000 complete. I did bone white concrete and am going to add "spray krete" pavers, or brick coping next year- looks like the real thing-google it and look at picts. It's almost like stamped concrete, except it's an overlay to existing, and looks awesome.
 

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
wow, so if I understand this correctly, this pool contracting co(?) actually just charged you $4500 to excavate, backfill, electrical and plumbing hookups as long as you bought the equiptment??

So if we keep out the paving for a second, your saying to just get the pool purchased and completely installed, it only cost you $11500? (+materials?)....what are the materials? and about how much did that add to your cost?


And my original question, I dont think any really was able to tell me what to look for in a competent paver of stone or concrete.....Or is it difficult to screen a good one? Just dont go for the cheapest quote?
 

bk406

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2009
2,690
Central Massachusetts
Kev68ss said:
bk406 said:
For what you are looking for, 30-32 k is about right. Your not going to find it any cheaper.
In Nashville I purchased a pool from national pool wholsalers for $7,000 online- 20x40 grecian lazy L, dual speed pump, steps, etc..complete. $4500 for install and I buy materials. With 30 yards of concrete decking around pool ($4000) it came to just under $20,000 complete. I did bone white concrete and am going to add "spray krete" pavers, or brick coping next year- looks like the real thing-google it and look at picts. It's almost like stamped concrete, except it's an overlay to existing, and looks awesome.
Two things. Thats a self contracted pool, basically. she has already said she doesnt want to d o that on other threads she has started. Second, you are in TN. Prices are substantially lower where you are as compared to the northeastern US. ~30K is the price you will pay for a pool she's describing, fully installed. You wont find too many installers, if any, up here who will do what you did. I'm not sayng you cant find one, but they would be few and far between.
 

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
Bk....out of curiousity, why wont pool builders in NJ (or NE area) offer to do it this way? It seems like it can be a more cost effective opportunity for the savvy pool owner who doesnt mind overseeing the construction. Im not saying that is an option for me, Im just curious as to why PBs up here wont do this....is it because they dont want customers to see how much profit they are pocketing by doing a complete pool build?....Just a thought.

And Im concerned as to why you dont think I have a chance to at least get a package down to perhaps 25K with the features I mentioned....even If I search in DEC and JAN? I have talked to a few people on this board that have mixed results with the pool purchases in the winter. Some say its a great way to save and others say, its will be the same all year round.

I personally am starting to believe that there is about 10-13K of profit on these complete pool build installs at quotes of about 30K. And until someone else can break it down line for line with some sort of estimated quote, I will negotiate with that in mind. I know profits need to be made, but I think I have some room to save some money.....am I way off with my profit estimates?
 

jasonknox

Platinum Supporter
May 4, 2010
300
SW Georgia
Fudgebar - I installed pavers around my pool and patio. I used 18 pallets which I think were 100sf per pallet. I intalled a row of pavers in morter around the coping (solder fashion) and then used a row lock pattern on sand out from that. Around the edge of the decking and patio I used a border of solder pavers. Mine were tumbeled concrete pavers (I wanted the weathered look). The advantages are to me: a) I looks absolutely outstanding. b) if you have a plumbing leak (which I had) in piping under pavers you just remove and replace, no cutting concrete and tring to match finishes. c) Laid them myself (this could be disadvantage as well) saved 5 to 7K. Disadvantages are: a) They get really hot b) You will be spraying roundup to kill weeds in joints c) you will need to spray insecticide to keep ants out. These last two are minor disadvantages.
 

dmanb2b

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Apr 4, 2009
3,734
NY
Fudge...I'm with BK on this one. You get what you pay for and in the Tri-State NY region, things are just more expensive. $30K seems reasonable and you don't want to end up having a 6 month project in your yard because you found a contractor that was willing to do the job for next to nothing in profit. That said, there are some builders by me that run adds for discounted pools in the fall, but whether they are actually discounted, I'm not sure.
 

dmanb2b

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Apr 4, 2009
3,734
NY
bk406 said:
jasonknox said:
You will be spraying roundup to kill weeds in joints c)
Not if you use polymeric sand you wont.
After 3-4 years the weeds will start popping out. I used unilock poymeric, patio is still nice and level, but I just finished rounding up and re-doing the joints with polymeric. Freeze thaw cycles in the north east eventually open cracks up in the joints.
 

bk406

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2009
2,690
Central Massachusetts
fudgebar said:
Bk....out of curiousity, why wont pool builders in NJ (or NE area) offer to do it this way?
Basically if they dont sell it, they wont warrant it, period. And yes, they make money on materials; they have to to stay in business. Labor cost, insurance, materials, cost fo living, etc are more expensive than down south. It's just the way it is. And yes, they are making money. Thats the way they eat and pay their mortgage. If they think 10k of profit is what they need, then thats the going rate. And its not all profit either. How much of that 10k goes in the guys pocket varies depending on his overhead. You also have to remember that the install season in the NE is shorter, and they dont do as many installs per year as a contractor down south either. They might do 40-60 per season, if that. A contractor further south or in high areas for residential pools might double that. You could try to get the price lower; you might be successful, you might not. It sounds like your not really sure about this, and your budget is set around 25k. If thats the case, you might be better off wating until you can afford the actual cost. Not trying to upset anyone, just stating the reality. The expense doesnt end with the install. You have a deck, a fence, and up keep to consider too, as you know.
 

bk406

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2009
2,690
Central Massachusetts
dmanb2b said:
After 3-4 years the weeds will start popping out. I used unilock poymeric, patio is still nice and level, but I just finished rounding up and re-doing the joints with polymeric. Freeze thaw cycles in the north east eventually open cracks up in the joints.
Yea, you will see a few, granted. My point was you wont see wholesale weed/grass gowth like ive seen with straight sand.
 

dmanb2b

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Apr 4, 2009
3,734
NY
bk406 said:
dmanb2b said:
After 3-4 years the weeds will start popping out. I used unilock poymeric, patio is still nice and level, but I just finished rounding up and re-doing the joints with polymeric. Freeze thaw cycles in the north east eventually open cracks up in the joints.
Yea, you will see a few, granted. My point was you wont see wholesale weed/grass gowth like ive seen with straight sand.
Absolutely agree :goodjob: I have seen the ocassional weed but nothing like using straight up sand.
 

Melt In The Sun

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
Oct 29, 2009
3,899
Tucson, AZ
As for the ants, I just put a little container of amdro by each nest as soon as they pop up, then in a couple days (once the nest is dead) pick up the bait and put it back in the drawer till next time. It barely even qualifies as an inconvenience.
 

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
bk406 said:
fudgebar said:
Bk....out of curiousity, why wont pool builders in NJ (or NE area) offer to do it this way?
Basically if they dont sell it, they wont warrant it, period. And yes, they make money on materials; they have to to stay in business. Labor cost, insurance, materials, cost fo living, etc are more expensive than down south. It's just the way it is. And yes, they are making money. Thats the way they eat and pay their mortgage. If they think 10k of profit is what they need, then thats the going rate. And its not all profit either. How much of that 10k goes in the guys pocket varies depending on his overhead. You also have to remember that the install season in the NE is shorter, and they dont do as many installs per year as a contractor down south either. They might do 40-60 per season, if that. A contractor further south or in high areas for residential pools might double that. You could try to get the price lower; you might be successful, you might not. It sounds like your not really sure about this, and your budget is set around 25k. If thats the case, you might be better off wating until you can afford the actual cost. Not trying to upset anyone, just stating the reality. The expense doesnt end with the install. You have a deck, a fence, and up keep to consider too, as you know.

Thanks guys...and BK, your input has been very valuable.

Yes, BK, Im trying to set my budget for approx 25-26K for the following:

14x28 vinyl 27mm
steel under liner steps
3/4 hayward pump or 1.5 2 speed pump
salt system
300lb sand, (or even cartridge system) undecided
110btu Heat Pump
QP Backfill
2" plumping Rigid or Flex PVC (it doesnt matter as long as its schedule 40, both will last long)
90amp outdoor sub panel, bonding, deck box
loop loc mesh cover installed
Dirt Removal

This would allow me to have another 6-7k for my concrete cantilever edging, deck, and patio area which could either be a 2nd phase or sooner

I already have 3/4 of the fence around the area, the final side is left open for access to excavate the area. Once complete, I budgeted about $1200 for a straight run of approx 35ft of 6ft privacy PVC fencing to enclose the pool yard
I am aware of the constant upkeep plus increase in electricity that it will require. That is one of the main reasons why I have been getting help from you wonderful people to help me match the best energy efficient equiptment together

Am I crazy to think that I can do this?
 

fudgebar

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2010
172
North Bergen, NJ
To be a bit more specific, I have tried to itemize my pool

Vinyl-Lined Rectangular Swimming Pool: 14’ X 28’

Commercial Construction: 14-Gauge Steel Walls, Gibralter Braces, 50% Extra Zinc Rust-Proofing,
4000 P.S.I. Concrete Footing, Vermiculite-Cement-Fiber-Mesh Floor, 27 Mil Commercial Liner.

Platinum Package: Hayward 500 Watt Underwater Light, Polaris Pool Cleaner, Jet-Net Skimmer,
Poolguard Safety Alarm. Super-Efficient Plumbing System with 2 Skimmers, 2 Wall Suctions, 3 Returns, 2 Main Drains 16,500

• Hayward TriStar 2 Speed Energy Efficient High Performance 1.5 HP pump 700
• Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter w/Top Mount Valve - 24-inch and 2” valve 750
• Hayward Aqua Rite Pro Salt Generator 1300
• Ruud 117BTU digital therm Heat Pump 3700


14’ steel under liner shallow entry steps 1200
Solar Sun Rings & Liquid Solar Blanket 500
Loop Lock Mesh Locking Safety Cover installed 1100


Permit Preparation
Pool Layout and Excavation
Complete electrical installation include 90amp sub panel, electrical, bonding, dual timer
2” Rigid PVC plumbing
Q.P. Backfill and Grading within 4 Feet from Water Line
Dirt Transportation and Removal
Temporary Safety Construction Fencing
Deluxe Maintenance Test Kit with Safety Rope and Floats
Pool Start-Up and Orientation

Total Price: 27,350
 
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