Weird electrical thing, figuring out solutions

[flynwill]

One thing I would double check is to make sure the breakers in positions 13,14 are not wired to anything else besides the contractor box. It doesn't look like it in your pictures, but looking close it looks like the wire that used to connect to the breaker in position 13 has been extended (wire nut next to that breaker) and now goes to a 15 amp breaker at the very bottom (#24).

I would not consider your first option (installing the GFCI device where the contactor is) without also replacing the breaker at 13/14 with a proper 2-pole breaker. Likely ~$30-40 additional.

Code requires a disconnecting means withing line-of-sight of any equipment. Having the timer up and around the corner from the pump may not meet that requirement (inspectors tend to vary as to what constitutes line of sight). But you could get around that by replacing what i assume is are direct-wired connections to the pump and swg, with a plug/socket under the deck appropriate to the voltage in use. (Whether you decide to switch to 120 or stick with 240). The requirement I think would also be met by installing a switch under the deck, perhaps in the existing box where the romex comes through from the basement. If you stick with 240V the switch needs to be 2-pole, switching both legs.

Otherwise I agree the location above the faucet at about eye level would be much better.

All the exterior wiring should to be in conduit, either EMT or PVC.

 

[Ahultin]

Add a sub panel powered by the two circuit breaker spaces (with new double pole breaker)
Pro:
Much cleaner than previous options
Could use 240v GFCI breaker
Could use to add proper garage circuits, including 120 and 240v options.
Probably expensive than new main panel

Con:
Not an inexpensive option
Might not have been "necessary" if I upgrade the main panel later

You seem handy and pretty comfortable around electrical so How about a variation of that option:
Pickup a new siemens 200 amp convertible main lug load center, something like this:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-200-Amp-30-Spaces-48-Circuit-Main-Lug-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center/1001861930

Get a 60 amp 2 pole breaker to replace the 15 and 20 currently feeding pool equipment:

Connecticut Electric New UBIF Thick 20 Amp 2 in. 2-Pole Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Type NA Replacement Circuit Breaker UBIF220N - The Home Depot

Connecticut Electric manufactures new high quality replacement circuit breakers for Stab-Lok load centers that accept NA style circuit breakers. Circuit breakers should only be replaced with new tested

www.homedepot.com

Place the new panel where the existing contactor is. Run a short piece of 1 or 1.25 conduit between the stab lok panel and the new panel and bring 4x 4ga wires , line 1, line 2, neutral and ground to feed the lugs of the new panel. Get a proper 20 amp gfci breaker for your pump
Siemens QF220A QF220 Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, 20 Amp, 2 Pole, 120 Volt, 10,000 AIC, Color https://a.co/d/gYQkonn

When you are ready to upgrade the old panel they can gut the existing Federal Pacific panel and use it as a junction box, convert the Siemens sub panel from main lug to Main breaker and add the needed breakers. The only thing you are out this way is the @55 for the stab lok 60 amp breaker and @40 (1.92/ft for probably 20ft) for the #4 wire that fed the sub panel.

 

[superdave5599]

One thing I would double check is to make sure the breakers in positions 13,14 are not wired to anything else besides the contractor box. It doesn't look like it in your pictures, but looking close it looks like the wire that used to connect to the breaker in position 13 has been extended (wire nut next to that breaker) and now goes to a 15 amp breaker at the very bottom (#24).

I would not consider your first option (installing the GFCI device where the contactor is) without also replacing the breaker at 13/14 with a proper 2-pole breaker. Likely ~$30-40 additional.

Code requires a disconnecting means withing line-of-sight of any equipment. Having the timer up and around the corner from the pump may not meet that requirement (inspectors tend to vary as to what constitutes line of sight). But you could get around that by replacing what i assume is are direct-wired connections to the pump and swg, with a plug/socket under the deck appropriate to the voltage in use. (Whether you decide to switch to 120 or stick with 240). The requirement I think would also be met by installing a switch under the deck, perhaps in the existing box where the romex comes through from the basement. If you stick with 240V the switch needs to be 2-pole, switching both legs.

Otherwise I agree the location above the faucet at about eye level would be much better.

All the exterior wiring should to be in conduit, either EMT or PVC.

Oh, yes, that option is pretty quickly set aside because of the need to change to a 2-pole breaker to do that correctly and how expensive the 240v GFCI device is without having any other benefits.

As far as line of sight... If I mount the timer/SWG controller above the hydrant as discussed, all I have to do to see the pump is crouch down, as it is immediately behind that lattice. Actually, I probably wouldn't even need to crouch down, I just need to look down!

 

[superdave5599]

Hmmm...

I went to the Habitat For Humanity ReStore today and unfortunately no sub panels for cheap, I did find a second 20 amp breaker for $1! Worst case scenario, I donated a buck to Habitat For Humanity.

...I don't suppose that I could just mechanically connect the two switches of the two breakers to "convert" them into a double-pole...?

In other scenarios:

Looks like there are plenty of 120/240v pump timers on Amazon for $50-75, most of which would be an upgrade to the current one (e.g. adding internet and/or bluetooth controls and multiple on/off settings).
So I'm thinking because I have some of the other electrical stuff required (such as a GFCI outlet, some wire) and such sitting in my garage, perhaps the least expensive short-term fix for this mess to at least increase safety is to consider changing things to 120v and run the power through the load side of the GFCI outlet.

Though Menards does sell a Square D kit that comes with two 20 amp breakers and two double-pole 30 amp breakers for $125, though there will likely still be other costs associated with that.

Found this video on wiring up the sub panel that looks pretty good:

 

[Ahultin]

What do you want to budget to spend on this and how much of it are you okay tossing when you get around to replacing the panel?

 

[superdave5599]

@Ahultin Great question!

Maybe this is a tad anticlimactic (at least for the moment), but what I decided to do for the moment is call an electrician to have him come out and see the mess I'm dealing with. Then hopefully talk through options and figure out the best plan of attack from there.

I decided I won't even mess with the weird contactor until he comes (I'm hoping it'll work out for next Wednesday morning when I don't have any clients). Because 1) I still have a lot of stuff to do to get ready for this trip and don't have think I have time to mess with the rewiring of the contactor and 2) I want him to see the full extent of what I'm dealing with. We'll only be gone Friday noonish until Monday evening. I've cranked the SWG up to 11 so I should have a bit of Chlorine in reserve in case of a dumb power blink, and I'll also ask a couple neighbors to let me know if they notice a power blink. If that happens, I can ask them to come reset the dumb contactor.

Very worst case, I have a solar cover and the chlorine has been just fine for a while now, so even if the power blinked and the SWG didn't run for a day or two, everything should be fine.

 

[flynwill]

As far as line of sight... If I mount the timer/SWG controller above the hydrant as discussed, all I have to do to see the pump is crouch down, as it is immediately behind that lattice. Actually, I probably wouldn't even need to crouch down, I just need to look down!

Unfortunately the "line of sight" rule works the other way. The idea is that someone working the equipment would be able to see someone turning the power back on. If that lattice under the deck is easily removable such that you can argue that someone working on the pump would be working from that side then you might be able to sell it. If you don't pull a permit for the work I wouldn't worry about it.

...I don't suppose that I could just mechanically connect the two switches of the two breakers to "convert" them into a double-pole...?

Handle ties exist and I think would be acceptable in this situation (assuming the contactor and it's associated neutral line go away), but whether you can find one for those stab-lok breakers I don't know. (and if you do find it, it might be as expensive as just getting a 2-pole breaker).

 

[superdave5599]

Unfortunately the "line of sight" rule works the other way. The idea is that someone working the equipment would be able to see someone turning the power back on. If that lattice under the deck is easily removable such that you can argue that someone working on the pump would be working from that side then you might be able to sell it. If you don't pull a permit for the work I wouldn't worry about it.

Handle ties exist and I think would be acceptable in this situation (assuming the contactor and it's associated neutral line go away), but whether you can find one for those stab-lok breakers I don't know. (and if you do find it, it might be as expensive as just getting a 2-pole breaker).

Gotcha about the line of sight. I suppose I could just do an inline switch if necessary.

Looks like a handle tie can be had on ebay for just a few bucks.

I'm thinking that probably if, after talking to the electrician, my wife and I decide we need to wait a while to make major changes to the panel (to save the cash) I'll either do the conversion to 120v or swap the 15 amp breaker and use a handle tie.

 

[Ahultin]

From a safety perspective and offering more utility maybe look at adding the ~50 dual pole breaker Connecticut Electric New UBIF Thick 20 Amp 2 in. 2-Pole Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Type NA Replacement Circuit Breaker UBIF220N - The Home Depot
plus a ~100 siemens load center (to match the recommended siemens gfci pump breaker)

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-100-Amp-20-Spaces-20-Circuit-Main-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center/1001861776

And the propert gfci breaker
Siemens QF220A QF220 Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, 20 Amp, 2 Pole, 120 Volt, 10,000 AIC, Color https://a.co/d/e2y52Oy

That panel is cheaper but only 125amp

 

[flynwill]

I'm thinking that probably if, after talking to the electrician, my wife and I decide we need to wait a while to make major changes to the panel (to save the cash) I'll either do the conversion to 120v or swap the 15 amp breaker and use a handle tie.

Actually there's no reason to swap that breaker (unless you think that the load is getting close to it's 15A rating).

 

[Ahultin]

Actually there's no reason to swap that breaker (unless you think that the load is getting close to it's 15A rating).

@superdave5599 based on the photo of your single speed pump in post 1, it draws 16 amps on a 120v. As I recall, you also have the swg on this circuit.

 

[superdave5599]

Actually there's no reason to swap that breaker (unless you think that the load is getting close to it's 15A rating).

I suppose you're right-it's been this way for God knows how many years anyway!

 

[Ahultin]

I suppose you're right-it's been this way for God knows how many years anyway!

This will only matter if you switch the pump to 120. At 240v your pump draws 8 amps from each hot, at 120v your pump will draw 16 amps from the single hot.

 

[flynwill]

Indeed that's a consideration in favor of keeping the pump and SWG on 240. 16A is the maximum allowed connected load on a 20A circuit (80%), so to add 1-2 amps for the SWG takes you over the code limit at 120V.

 

[superdave5599]

Well, my fears about a power glitch while we were gone were not unfounded. Luckily, I had asked a couple of the neighbors to let me know if it did glitch and one was able to go flip the switch on again.

I also found that the garage fridge had warmed up significantly. Thankfully there wasn't much more than beer in the fridge and the freezer was still at 33 degrees when I found it, so nothing reached deadly zone. But, that probably does give me some more pull when I talk to the wife about paying to have some of these things fixed! (As I mentioned before, the garage has one on a circuit that is undersized for a proper garage... The fridge out there is currently plugged into an extension cord and it must have been kicked loose at some point.)

Electrician is scheduled for 9:15 Wednesday to do a quote.

 

[superdave5599]

We had the electrician out last week, and have decided to do what was really always the most sensible thing:

Have him replace the circuit breaker panel and run a line to a sub panel in the garage.

I'll take care of moving the pump controls and such into the pool area, and run the wire for the sub panel in the garage; he'll hook that up and then I can install my outlets out there whenever.

I do have a question about moving the controls, though.

Because of the discussion on having a line-of-site disconnect, I figured I'd just put in a single throw, double pole switch in the spot where a switch had been in the past (in a better, waterproof box). That way, I can turn the pump off with the switch, even if it happened to be turned on by/at the timer. Which leaves me wondering about the SWCG. Seems like if I were to run power from the new timer location to the switch, but moved the SWCG's power input with the timer as it is, it could happen that the timer would call for the pump to run, which would switch the SWCG on too. But if the pump's power were cut at the switch in the current location when the timer turned on, then the SWCG could be on, but without the pump running.

I know that the flow switch is there as a fail-safe, but I also know that it isn't designed to be on without the pump running.

So it occurs to me that the SWCG power should be also hooked up to that single throw, dual pole switch-yes? That way, if I choose to turn the pump off at that switch, both pump and SWCG will be shut down together, even if the timer tries to tell them to come on.

Just want to make sure I'm right about my thoughts and conclusion.

 

[flynwill]

Yes your conclusion is correct. Power should come from the panel to the new switch and then to the timer which would then power both the pump and the SWG. That way SWG can not run unless there is power to the pump as well.

That's how the system is currently wired, correct?

As for the wiring I would probably, as you suggest, replace that waterproof box under the deck with a new one with the SPDT switch (and appropriate weather-tight cover).
Run an Conduit (I would recommend EMT, but you can also use PVC if you paint it) from that location to a second water-tight box near the pool equipment.
That box will have two additional conduits, one watertite flex conduit to the pump. And one EMT or PVC run to the new timer location.
Install the timer and the SWG controller at the proposed location around the corner.
The conduit between that second box and the timer will have both the line-side legs from the switch and also the switched legs going back to the pump (as well as a green if you use PVC conduit). I'd recommend either using a different color wire (eg red or blue or yellow) for the lines from the switch to the pump, but that isn't essential, (but labeling the lines in the timer box is strongly recommended).
Likely you can connect the SWG controller to the timer via a short length of conduit, maybe even an "offset" or short nipple if the boxes are side-by-side on the wall.
Lastly the cord from the SWG controller to the SWG I would just cable-tie to the conduit.

 

[superdave5599]

Currently, power goes from the circuit panel, through the dumb contactor box, exits the house into the switch box that is being used just as junction box. From there, power goes into the timer. From the timer, power goes to the pump and SWCG.

What I was thinking of is sending power to proposed new location, into the timer. Then from timer to the line side of the DPST switch near the pump. From the load side of the switch, power goes to the pump AND back over to the the controller for the SWCG. That switch would normally be in the ON position, but could be turned to OFF next to the pump if desired and with the SWCG on the load side too, it cannot run if the switch is off.

Any reason that couldn't work?

 

[flynwill]

Assuming I've correctly followed your description that would be fine. Are you planning to relocate the SWG controller to be near the timer location as well, or leave it down under the porch?

 

[superdave5599]

Assuming I've correctly followed your description that would be fine. Are you planning to relocate the SWG controller to be near the timer location as well, or leave it down under the porch?

The timer is currently under the deck by the pump and filter. The SWCG controller is mounted *above* the deck, right next to the back door that leads to the upper deck.

I was originally thinking I'd move it to be placed next to the timer inside the pool area, but as I am writing this, I am realizing that I suppose it doesn't matter as much. I don't have to turn the SWCG on and off when doing things like vacuuming or cleaning out the skimmer. I really have only needed to do anything with the controller to change the percentage of run time. And I can do that just as I go in the house!

So perhaps it'll just stay where it is for the time being. That would also make it easier to run the wiring to the switch I propose.