Variable Speed Pumps Maximum Speed.

[mas985]

If you can use a smaller motor, the pump will cost less.

Perhaps, but a manufacture's primary objective is not to reduce cost but to maximize operating margins (cost & revenue) and I suspect the margins are much higher for the larger THP VS pumps than the smaller ones so the actual manufacturing costs may not be that much different. But it would be interesting to see how much of a difference there is in manufacturing costs. Plus, if the manufacture thinks this "new" pump canabalizes sales of their higher margin versions, it is DOA.

 

[JamesW]

OK Engineering, now it is not simply a software change.

The 1.65 HP VS motors already exist.

No engineering needed.

Take a 1.65 HP motor and put it on an IntelliFlo pump instead of the regular 3.95 HP motor.

Edit the software to limit the power to 1.65 hp.

 

[JamesW]

If the manufacture thinks this "new" pump cannibalizes sales of their higher margin versions, it is DOA.

The goal for Pentair is to take market share from Hayward and Jandy.

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, one of the biggest benefits is to keep the noise down by keeping the speed down.

People hate loud, whiny pumps as shown in this thread.

New pool, noisy pump

Hi everyone, I have a brand new pool (in-ground, gunite) which has just been started up. The pump is running for the second day now since its initial start-up after the pool was first filled up. Unfortunately the excitement of finally having the pool completed has been marred by the pump being...

www.troublefreepool.com

The back mounted fan is super loud and annoying at full speed.

In my opinion, there is no reason that most pumps should be designed with a top speed of 3,450 RPM.

Also, most smart people buy their pumps based on TFP recommendations and I would be recommending the new design over other louder models.

 

[ajw22]

The goal for Pentair is to take market share from Hayward and Jandy.

The customers who move the volume are the Pool Builders, not retail customers.

It appears Jandy has much better incentives for Pool Builders than Pentair. To take market share it is about PB incentives and not product. Pentair already has the superior product.

 

[JamesW]

The goal for Pentair is to take market share from Hayward and Jandy.

Of course, if that happens, then Hayward and Jandy will have to follow suit.

 

[mas985]

The goal for Pentair is to take market share from Hayward and Jandy.

Plus maximize margins.

But in order steal market share the product needs to fill a demand that is not currently filled with other products. Putting a lower THP motor/drive on a higher THP wet end which will likely reduce the efficiency compared to the the higher THP pump/motor/drive with it might be slightly better than the lower THP pump/motor/drive but probably not enough to write home about.

Noise is really the only advantage that I can see. But is it enough?

Any VS pump is very quiet when run at circulation/filtering speeds. It is only at high flow rate where it matters.

 

[JamesW]

The customers who move the volume are the Pool Builders, not retail customers.

That's true, but you still have a lot of people doing their own research and that has a lot of influence.

People don't just blindly follow builder recommendations like they once did especially for replacement pumps.

For a build, I agree that the builder has the most influence, but that's changing as people can now get good advice, especially from TFP.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would like to pre-order my James Pools Inc ultra-fancy variable speed pump and 600,000 BTU/hr high efficiency heater … when will there be a Kickstarter?

 

[JamesW]

For a high flow, low head application, like an infinity edge, I think that if you doubled the impeller size on the IntelliFloXF and reduced the top speed, it would be quieter, it would be more efficient and it should be able to generate more flow.

For example, if you doubled the impeller on the IntelliFloXF, the head curve at maximum speed of 1,725 RPM would look like the red line, so you would get 195 GPM at 1,725 RPM instead of 3,450 RPM and you could get even more flow if the ststem is designed correctly with very low head.

You could probably get 270 GPM with the larger impeller design vs. the 220 GPM maximum of the smaller impeller/

 

[JamesW]

600,000 BTU/hr high efficiency heater

We changed it to a variable speed heater.

You can adjust the heat output from 1 btu/hr to 1 million btu/hr.

We have also improved the efficiency to 150%.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Thought experiment - I hate my single speed whisperflo waterfall pump. Could I leave the wet end in place (mint condition mostly) and swap out the motor and impeller for some variable speed option that could turn into more of a waterfall pump than a pool pump?

 

[ajw22]

That's true, but you still have a lot of people doing their own research and that has a lot of influence.

People don't just blindly follow builder recommendations like they once did especially for replacement pumps.

For a build, I agree that the builder has the most influence, but that's changing as people can now get good advice, especially from TFP.

Please prepare a PowerPoint market analysis with at least 25 slides to present it to Marketing and Finance for their approval. It will then be prioritized with other 2025 investment Plans.

 

[mas985]

For example, if you doubled the impeller on the IntelliFloXF, the head curve at maximum speed of 1,725 RPM would look like the red line, so you would get 195 GPM at 1,725 RPM instead of 3,450 RPM and you could get even more flow if the ststem is designed correctly with very low head.

As I pointed out earlier: Featured - Variable Speed Pumps Maximum Speed.

Increasing the size of the impeller would require a new wet end design. The existing XF wet end has no room to expand the impeller diameter nor vane width. They are as large as the volute allows.

The head curve you plotted would require an impeller 2.2x the existing diameter to get that max head at 1725 RPM. The wet end would therefore be 2.2x larger in diameter.

 

[JamesW]

@JamesW, correct me if I am wrong but I think what you are suggesting is a quasi VS waterfall pump design. For waterfall applications, this could be desirable for adjustment in the look of the waterfall but it comes at a cost.

Yes, that is part of the idea.

Below is the head curve for the waterfall pump, which can do 190 GPM at 1,380 watts vs. the Intelliflo that uses 3,000 watts at 140 GPM.

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/pumps/waterfall/WaterFall_Specialty_Pump_English.pdf

 

[JamesW]

Please prepare a PowerPoint market analysis with at least 25 slides to present it to Marketing and Finance for their approval.

That's the problem with too many corporations.

That's why you need people like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos to make a decision and go with it.

 

[mas985]

The only thing Jeff Bezos makes is money.

 

[JamesW]

The wet end would therefore be 2.2x larger in diameter.

Ok, it's just plastic.

Plastic is cheap.

Design costs money, but the WhisperFlo pump is like 60 years old.

Also, the impeller does not necessarily need to be exactly double, maybe 1.5 times bigger with a reduced RPM.

My main point is to stay away from 3,450 RPM.

Even if you can reduce the top speed to 2,750 RPM, that is a big improvement.

In most cases, the IntelliFloXF with a smaller motor would do a good job for most residential customers who should not need more than 40 gpm at any time.

 

[ajw22]

That's the problem with too many corporations.

That's why you need people like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos to make a decision and go with it.

Apple or Amazon designed pool equipment would likely shake up the market. The fact that they have not viewed it as an opportunity is a comment on the market.

Amazon has acquired companies that started on Kickstarter like Ring, Blink, and Wyze.

I think Apple has plans for their EV and AR before they get to the pool equipment market.

 

[mas985]

In most cases, the IntelliFloXF with a smaller motor would do a good job for most residential customers who should not need more than 40 gpm at any time.

From my own experience, it is a really nice benefit to have the higher flow rates for rapid clearing of the pool before a swim or after a nasty storm. I would not want a pump that is stuck on low all the time. Could also be an issue with backwashing.