Variable Speed Pump with mechanical timer? How to change pump speed with solar?

[torinoscj429]

Well, I'm pretty much convinced that the variable speed pump is a good idea to replace my 1-1/2 HP single speed pump, for energy savings. Two questions:

1. The current pump is controlled by a mechanical timer. I like it. The timer also controls the power to the Hayward SwimPure Plus Salt Water Chlorine generator. Do I have to give up the mechanical timer and use the timer on the pump? If so, am I going to have to get a current sensor like I'm reading about here, to turn the SWG on and off?

2. I have solar panels on the roof, and Goldline GL-235 thermostatic control that moves a low voltage motorized valve to send the water up according to temperature demand. This extra raising of the water is likely going to require an increase in pump speed. How do I tell the pump to speed up?

Thanks,

Gerard
San Diego

 

[chiefwej]

I have the Intelliflo 011018 pump and a solar system using the Pentair SolarTouch controller. The two work seamlessly together. The controller was a bargain. For about $250 I got the control box, solar valve, valve actuator, and two temperature sensors, (one for panel, one for water). The communication cable that comes with the pump gets connected to the controller. An external speed was selected to support the solar and programmed into the pump. My old pump, like yours was on a timer. I just moved the feed for the new VS pump from the switched side to the hot side of the timer. That left only my Hayward SWG controlled by the timer. The pump is run by its internal timer/controller and the SWG is set to come on during a period I know the pump will be running.

The more variables you have, the more you need a variable speed pump. I don't know if I'll ever recover the near $1000 it cost to add the Intelliflo VS pump, but I would have bought it anyway. I have a 19k pool/spa with infloor cleaning, solar and NG heating, and a salt water chlorine generator. I have my pump programmed to come on each morning at a speed optimized for the infloor cleaning for 1 hour to clean up the pool. It then drops down to the minimum speed needed to operate my SWCG. If heat is called for and available at the solar panels, the solar control ramps up the pump to the pre set speed that is optimized for the solar system, and opens the solar control valve. When finished it closes the valve and returns control to the pump controller. After the SWCG is through chlorinating the pool for the day, the pump drops to a very slow 1000 rpm (using the power of a 100w light bulb), which provides extra filtration that makes the water extra sparkling clean. At 10pm it shuts down and waits for the next morning. That's all done within the pump programming, and is done without any automation system (other than my very basic SolarTouch solar controller). Since I am running the lowest effective speed for each task and the pump uses a fraction of the power consumed by the old pump (a Hayward 2hp Super Pump), even at its fastest setting, I assume, some day it will have paid for itself. But, as far as I'm concerned the pump has already proved it value, and I didn't even mention that it's so quiet you often have to touch it to be sure it running

 

[Jimrahbe]

Gerard,

I looked at the manual for your Goldline GL-235 thermostatic control and find that it has a Normally Open relay that you could use to trigger your new pump to ramp up its speed for solar.... maybe..?? It all depends on which pump you plan to buy.

Basically you would program your new pump using the pump's control panel to run the way you want for normal operation. Your current timer system would still control the SWCG and tell the pump to increase speed when solar is called for..

The main downfall for this type of set up is that it would be up to you to ensure that the two clocks (the one in the pump and the mechanical one) are synced together.

Just as an example.. I would set the pump to run from 10 am until 10 pm and then adjust the timer to run from 11 am until 9 pm... this would allow some overlap so the two timers do not have to be in perfect synchronization.

You need to buy a pump that allows you to send it an external signal that will cause the pump to increase in speed.

What pump are you planning to buy?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[torinoscj429]

Gerard,

I looked at the manual for your Goldline GL-235 thermostatic control and find that it has a Normally Open relay that you could use to trigger your new pump to ramp up its speed for solar.... maybe..?? It all depends on which pump you plan to buy.

Basically you would program your new pump using the pump's control panel to run the way you want for normal operation. Your current timer system would still control the SWCG and tell the pump to increase speed when solar is called for..

The main downfall for this type of set up is that it would be up to you to ensure that the two clocks (the one in the pump and the mechanical one) are synced together.

Just as an example.. I would set the pump to run from 10 am until 10 pm and then adjust the timer to run from 11 am until 9 pm... this would allow some overlap so the two timers do not have to be in perfect synchronization.

You need to buy a pump that allows you to send it an external signal that will cause the pump to increase in speed.

What pump are you planning to buy?

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim

I'm not set on any particular brand or model of VS pump, more important is finding one that will work with my existing equipment, without having to spend a ton of money on an automation system. I'm also not averse to an automation system, if it's simple, not too expensive, and can live outdoors where the equipment is.

Thanks,

Gerard

 

[Jimrahbe]

Gerard,

Your Goldline GL-235 thermostatic control is a basic automation system... The Pentair SuperFlo VS pump allows external control with a special cable, so that is one pump that would work as I described above. I suspect that Hayward and Jandy make a similar pump, but I am not too familiar with their products.

I really like the Chief's setup, but to do that you would have the buy the IntelliFlo and the SolarTouch, a lot more work and about twice the cost.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[chiefwej]

The Superflo is not a high head pump. I'm not sure if it would support the solar, but I'm not a pump expert. It also doesn't have the programming flexibility of the Intelliflo series. I do know that the Intelliflo will support anything. It cost a little more (about $850) but it's the gold standard in VS pumps. If Pentair will communicate with your Goldline controller, you can do exactly what I do.

 

[me2Deep]

I'm very interested in this thread as I too have a Pentair 011018 VS pump and a Suntouch controller for solar. My old Whisperflo pump was on a mechanical timer, which I just took the leg tripper things off and leave the main switch on. My booster for sweeper is on the mechanical timer. With the Suntouch controller and a few more relays installed it is possible to.... 1. Have the booster hooked up to the Suntouch to turn on a few minutes after the Intelliflo? 2. Have the Intelliflo (or the Suntouch to tell the pump) automatically increase the RPM's to allow the 27' high solar panels to fill. Only thing I've figure out so far is set schedules on the pump to run at X speed at X time for the sweeper then change to a different schedule and different speed for solar. The problem occurs when it heats up enough to kick the solar on before the set schedule for the sweeper is finished. That's when the sweeper stops (5 minute safety delay) and the speed set for running the sweep isn't fast enough to get the solar to fill. Once that schedule is done the new one for the solar starts and no more problems until the heat drops or the pool reaches temp and the solar turns off. At that point the pump is just wasting power by running faster than it needs to. Does that make sense? I'm sure there's a better way to ask the questions with out all the rambling I tend to do...


If this is "thread jacking" I apologize and please move/delete the post.

 

[chiefwej]

The SunTouch is a solar control and automation system vs SolarTouch which is just a solar controller. Since my much simpler SolarTouch can control the pump, your SunTouch should be able to control the Intelliflo pump, ramping it up when heat is called for and releasing control when done, and do much more.

 

[torinoscj429]

Gerard,

Your Goldline GL-235 thermostatic control is a basic automation system... The Pentair SuperFlo VS pump allows external control with a special cable, so that is one pump that would work as I described above. I suspect that Hayward and Jandy make a similar pump, but I am not too familiar with their products.

I really like the Chief's setup, but to do that you would have the buy the IntelliFlo and the SolarTouch, a lot more work and about twice the cost.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks for the help! So, the solar controller is the easy part of this problem...it will signal the pump to speed up.

The difficulty now lies with the Hayward SwimPure SW Chlorine Generator. The SWCG manual specifically says "Do not leave unit powered with no flow." Is there a VS pump that will control the chlorine generator? It seems like a simple feature...turn on something else with the timer on top of the pump. I'm not set on any one brand or the other, so if one brand can do this, then that's the brand I'll buy.

Thanks,

Gerard

 

[chiefwej]

When I installed my VS pump I just moved the pump's power supply from the switched side of my old Intermatic timer to the hot side. I left my SWG on the switched side. Then I set the timer to turn the SWG on only during a time period that I have the pump programmed to run. Simple solution.

 

[torinoscj429]

When I installed my VS pump I just moved the pump's power supply from the switched side of my old Intermatic timer to the hot side. I left my SWG on the switched side. Then I set the timer to turn the SWG on only during a time period that I have the pump programmed to run. Simple solution.

The solution you propose is fraught with danger, and won't work for me.

If the power goes out for any length of time, the pump electronic timer and the SWCG mechanical timer will be out of sync.

We also go on vacation in the summer, and our home caretakers would not be able to handle this.

I need a pump timer that will turn on the SWCG. Is there a VS pump controller that will do this?

Gerard

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The solution you propose is fraught with danger, and won't work for me.

If the power goes out for any length of time, the pump electronic timer and the SWCG mechanical timer will be out of sync.

We also go on vacation in the summer, and our home caretakers would not be able to handle this.

I need a pump timer that will turn on the SWCG. Is there a VS pump controller that will do this?

Gerard

VSP pumps are not typically designed to do this. Most VSPs are designed to accept remote control, not provide it. That's why automation panels are sold - if Pentair sold a pump that could do what it's EasyTouch automation panel can do, then why would anyone want to buy an EasyTouch?

There's a simpler solution to your dilemma - convert your single speed pump into a 2-speed pump and just ensure that the LOW speed setting has enough flow to satisfy the SWG. This might require nothing more than a motor swap and impeller change. Then you can probably use your current Goldline controller in conjunction with a new 2-speed intermatic timer to control the 2-speed pump.

Unfortunately this is a case where the pool owner is stuck in the middle ground - needing some level of automation but not a full blown panel. Unfortunately, there's no profit in that middle ground space for pool equipment manufacturers and so you're stuck with having to kludge-together components to make it work the way you want.

 

[torinoscj429]

VSP pumps are not typically designed to do this. Most VSPs are designed to accept remote control, not provide it. That's why automation panels are sold - if Pentair sold a pump that could do what it's EasyTouch automation panel can do, then why would anyone want to buy an EasyTouch?

There's a simpler solution to your dilemma - convert your single speed pump into a 2-speed pump and just ensure that the LOW speed setting has enough flow to satisfy the SWG. This might require nothing more than a motor swap and impeller change. Then you can probably use your current Goldline controller in conjunction with a new 2-speed intermatic timer to control the 2-speed pump.

Unfortunately this is a case where the pool owner is stuck in the middle ground - needing some level of automation but not a full blown panel. Unfortunately, there's no profit in that middle ground space for pool equipment manufacturers and so you're stuck with having to kludge-together components to make it work the way you want.

Yes, I am getting the impression from my emails to Hayward that I am in this unprofitable middle ground of needing only very minimal automation that they do not offer.

Have others on this forum done the 2 speed route, so I can search around some?

Thanks,
Gerard

 

[chiefwej]

Some have used a power sensing relay to power the SWG when the VS pump activates. The separate timer works well for me. When doing my other pool maintenance, I just occasionally check to insure it's synchronized with the pump. If it did ever get out of sync, well thats why the flow switch is there, as a safety backup device. It just shouldn't be depended upon as a primary switching device.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Current or power sensing relays would be hard to implement on a VSP because a VSP is powered all the time. That's the whole point - the on board electronics controls the speed and run times. So I'm not sure how easily one could use a sensing relay to do the job.

Simply connecting the SWG to the load side of a 2-speed controller/timer would ensure that the SWG is only energized when the pump is running.

 

[torinoscj429]

VSP pumps are not typically designed to do this. Most VSPs are designed to accept remote control, not provide it. That's why automation panels are sold - if Pentair sold a pump that could do what it's EasyTouch automation panel can do, then why would anyone want to buy an EasyTouch?

There's a simpler solution to your dilemma - convert your single speed pump into a 2-speed pump and just ensure that the LOW speed setting has enough flow to satisfy the SWG. This might require nothing more than a motor swap and impeller change. Then you can probably use your current Goldline controller in conjunction with a new 2-speed intermatic timer to control the 2-speed pump.

Unfortunately this is a case where the pool owner is stuck in the middle ground - needing some level of automation but not a full blown panel. Unfortunately, there's no profit in that middle ground space for pool equipment manufacturers and so you're stuck with having to kludge-together components to make it work the way you want.

So, looking at it from the other direction, how much does a very simple automation system cost? Are these the kinds of things that can live outdoors on a wall?

Gerard