Troubleshooting 15 y/o Hayward H 200 Leak/IF code

[Swampwoman]

Hi guys.
My old Hayward H200 heater circa 2001 got jealous that we were having the liner measured for new yesterday and threw an IF code and possibly a leak

Not sure if puddle of water ( a few feet after several hours) is from a hole in heat exchanger or if violent storm yesterday got water down the flue/stack. The heater is in the pool house, so exchanger more likely.

Powered everything down last night after removing panels and trying to see water source. I don't have a bypass due to tight footprint.

Could the leak itself (or external water) trigger the Ignition Failure code? Eg. wet flame sensor? (Is the flame sensor usually an orange cable that goes down under unit and up into body?) I don't have a voltmeter for step one of dx, so I'll have to get the pool stealer out regardless today, but want to minimize stealer shenanigans.

I've turned the system back on to get some fresh FC generating (swg) before turning it off for a repair visit and am hoping to see if I can notice any new water.

My plan is to make pool guy find a way to create a bypass so that I can buy some time to decide/acquire new heater ultimately, but if its just a seal or something, I'd go for repair.

Is it ever, at 15 years, worth a solder repair if it is a leak in the exchanger? And would I be better off w/new unit than new exchanger in this case?

I don't want to mess with the (very long run) gas line, stack, etc. so I may disband my previous plot to upgrade to a Pentair master temp 400 btu....we heat continually so don't really need fast heat up. Think my line s at least an inch, bu it also feeds gas stove.

But if there's a case to be made for different/better brand of unit, or dx trick, etc., now would be a great time to give me fodder for thought So thanks in advance if you have .02 to offer

 

[ps0303]

You might just be seeing water from the storm. But if the unit is leaking you should consider replacing it since it is as old as it is. Yes some people do repair the heat exchanger by having a auto repair shop solder it but you have to consider that if you have one hole you probably have other areas that are just as close to leaking. As for the IF code, yes a wet ignitor/flame sensor can cause this. I have times where I get calls for the same unit where it won't stay lit just after a huge storm come thru. I have them power cycle the unit a few times after they get the IF code and then after a few attempts at lighting, it finally lights ans stays lit. It just needed to dry out.

As for replacement if and when you do, do yourself a big favor and choose a Raypak. It is currently the better unit on the market and simple. No extra parts to fail down the line like a new Hayward or Pentair.

 

[Swampwoman]

Thanks!
Tried a few more cycles this am and still coding but maybe needs more time

 

[ps0303]

If it's still showing that code after say three cycles of lighting and going out, then it's probably a bad ignitor. Now I have also seen where the pod where the wire connects into on the control board will have solder joints come lose and that can cause an error. So check that out as well. That connector should be solidly in place.

 

[Swampwoman]

So, losing confidence in the pool tech co...

Had them out to dx - exchanger def leaking and is old copper type - but the part that ticks me off is when they were putting in the bypass I asked them where the check valve had gone.

Apparently, when they installed the SWG this spring, they'd sawn it off and never replaced it...so there was no check valve between the new swg and the old heater.

Now in fairness, it was a 15 y/o heater with a copper exchanger but I really wonder if the absence of a check valve with the swg unit so close exacerbated or quickened its demise...

Guess I'll never know but am I correct to have a trust issue re its omission? This is germane, because I now have to decide who gets the business on a new install, so feedback is welcome. I'm feeling a little wary.

 

[ps0303]

Old copper type? No the SWG would not have affected the unit. Check valves are used more for regular chlorine systems. The unit is old and has seen it's life I guess.

 

[thepoolman]

I will second that the lack of check valve would not have affected the heater.

 

[Swampwoman]

Good to know. I'll let that part go then

Getting some conflicting opinions from two cos. I've now called as to size so I went to an engineering site and did my own math

One guy insisted I needed no more than 150,000 BTU for my 23,000 pool and that to go bigger somehow would pose a problem but I heat May thru Oct in Michigan and my shoulder temp differentials between water and air can be as high as about 38 degrees on average...and I don't cover (but do use cover free.)

According to the engineering site formula, for 550 square feet at 38 degree differential times 10 btu an hour to maintain I'd be using 209,000 btu an hour on chilly shoulder nights.

What's puzzling is I'm doing that now with a 78% efficient 200,000 btu for a reasonable cost so maybe the CoverFree works better at heat retention than most folks think

I've got a 2" pipe from the meter that splits down to a 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 I think (other split s a 1" to my gas stove/heater in pool house) (used to be another big overhead heater on the line for a shop that has since been replaced with a heat pump) so my guess is I should be able to feed a beefier unit, eg 300,000 btu anyway.

Not sure why the heck the one installer was so insistent on 150,000 btu. I'll see what the other guy says tomorrow.

 

[thepoolman]

The guy with the 150 may have one he needs to move....

I don't think you would have any issue stepping up to a 300k, but I'm also from Florida and not standing in your backyard. Do you have a gas company you trust that could give you an opinion?

 

[Swampwoman]

I've got a friend in hvac who is out of town at the moment. Last night by phone he told my my venting was already type B (the installer I talked to said it would have been single wall back then and had tacked on 600 for venting). He couldn't recall the btu of the unit removed from the shop that was on the same line, but I can likely vet this between the gas company and him when he returns.

 

[ps0303]

Is your heater located inside? If you went with a Raypak and the unit is outside you may not need a stack. As for size, the bigger the better. I wouldn't put anything less than a 250 or so on a pool. The cost difference between a 200 and a 250 should be minimal. I shy away from the units like a 333K. They are less common.

 

[Swampwoman]

It is inside the pool house and has to vent 2-stories on a pitched roof. But the existing venting is already b type. I got a couple of referrals today from my business network so I'm going to call around. But on product, I just should first make sure I can feed whatever I spec
-- because I don't want to add a few grand with a bigger pipe on a long run

 

[Swampwoman]

Update: thanks guys, for the tips.
I ended up ordering a Raypak 266k btu with cupro nickel exchanger, electronic ignition, online from Inyo Pools -- the owner is a fellow TFPer. Excellent price and customer service/pre sale attention so far.

My regular company (original builders) wanted literally double for the unit ($3100 vs $1599), another quoted $700 more, and since I just signed for a new lner, I was having trouble rationalizing the huge differential since either way the warranty is only a year (a year even online because I am going to have it professionally installed, etc.

Each company was going to sub the gas and electrical anyway and I have two guys I like in those departments.) Hoping it all goes smoothly

The unit itself is the closest in physical size and orientation to my old hayward ed2 (its 21" - and in my set up there's not much more room between where the gas pipe comes down and the plumbing needs to connect). I also ordered the raypak indoor vent hood, which looks identical to the one used on the hayward.

Let me know if there's anything I'm overlooking. I usually don't play "general contractor" on these things but increasingly I'm finding it in my interest to do so Hi ho.

 

[ps0303]

No one that sells locally will ever be able to meet or beat internet prices. I run into this all the time. While my total install price on a 266 isn't $3100, I wonder why they are so high. That is more like a 400K install price.

 

[Swampwoman]

Yeah, I don't think the original PB wanted the work right now

In other news, the Raypak was delivered by truck yesterday, was well packed and appears in good order so hats off to Inyo Pools so far. Pretty fast shipping for freight/truck (shipped Friday) and lots of helpful links to docs re specs, install etc., so smooth transaction.

I lucked out and found an experienced installer (specialized in pools) and blessed by my hvac pal...whose squeezing me in on Saturday thanks to a business connection, so fingers crossed that all goes well He came out this a.m. to pre-inspect my set up, look at the new heater, plumbing, etc, plan the bypass and a sacrificial anode.

So thanks everyone for helping me vet this whole process. Let me know if I can ever do the same