Tried a bromide salt spa with SmarterSpa...help!!!

[caleb0286]

1. So emptied the old water which was NaCl water. Flushed the lines with Ahh-Sum before emptying, then flushed the lines with the garden hose that has a carbon filter on the end of it.
2. Filled tub with filtered hose water
3. Brought to 85 degrees
4. Added borax to get to 40ppm borates
5. Checked TA, it was 140, got it down to 80 with dry acid
6. Brought ph back up to 7.6 with baking soda
7. Cleaned the heck out of my salt electrode with vinegar soaking, then thoroughly rinsed with freshwater. Manual for SmarterSpa says it is compatible with sodium bromide as well as sodium chloride. Put electrode into the water.
8. Added 10 pounds of sodium bromide, which wasn't cheap, but I like the feel/smell of bromide over chlorine.
9. This might be where I screwed the pooch - Added about a tablespoon of Dichlor without thinking, I usually do this when I fill with new water to let it knock out everything that's residual in hose water.
10. My entire tub is now a yellow-ish brown water and looks like heck....
    
    Any ideas on what do to? I don't want to have to start over and spend 200 bucks on NaBR again if I can help from doing so...

 

[PoolStored]

Are you on well water? Could be iron.

Probably elemental bromine.

High concentrations of bromine will be yellow or brown depending on how much bromine there is.

needs help. LOL

I think that the above post shows a pool with high concentrations of bromine.

What is your bromine level (test)? Can you post a full set of test results?

Can you post a pic?

 

[Mdragger88]

Also, please fill out your signature- this helps us help you in a myriad of ways including knowing if 10# of sodium bromide is way too much for your volume & what test kit you are using.

Create Your Signature - Further Reading

www.google.com

 

[Mdragger88]

Also, Can you give us a link or a pic of the sodium bromide product you used? Some can already contain dichlor or mps.

 

[caleb0286]

Signature updated - it's a 410 gallon spa, I added 10 pounds of 99% sodium bromide based upon the SmarterSpa manual.

This is the product used - https://www.amazon.com/Spa-Choice-Essentials-Bromide-Booster/dp/B00IGERDJ8?th=1
This is the device manual - https://www.controlomatic.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/SmarterSpa-Manual.pdf (page 6 shows the dosage)

 

[Mdragger88]

Here’s what the dichlor should have done which doesn’t look too detrimental

Can you post all your current results?
I am also thinking you over shot the sodium bromide (although you followed the manual)
It would have been much cheaper & simpler to just use pool salt (which is $6 for 40#) to reach the desired salinity & then use a small amount of sodium bromide (ounces instead of pounds) to create your “bromide bank”.
The manual makes it seem as if the cell produces bromine directly based on what salt you use - that is not actually what happens. (This is a layman’s explanation but —> the cell initially produces chlorine if salt is present, if bromide is also present then the chlorine it produces gets turned into bromine. If bromide is present, Any chlorine added will be turned into bromine - whether it comes from a swg or not.
Hopefully @JoyfulNoise or @JamesW can elaborate & determine where to go from here.

 

[Mdragger88]

Sodium Bromide - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Methuselah]

No idea on the yellow, and thinking iron should have been blocked by the charcoal filter you used? I know less than nothing about Bromine but if that's about all that's in there it sounds plausible it precipitated. Maybe from having too much in there, no clue (sorry).

The whole idea and what gets preached here is keeping things simple and trying not to add anything to the water that isn't necessary. So, that said most folk say use mercuric acid to adjust the TA, shooting for a PH of around 7 and use aeration to push PH back up --- doing both in stages that allow you to "sneak up on" a TA target in the range of 40-50 with the referee on when to stop being you want the PH to get stubbornly set in the mid to upper 7's. Adding too much acid and having to push it back in the other direction just adds "extra stuff" in there.

You can guestimate how much acid with an acid demand test or use the sites calculator webpage. There is also a downloadable app.

It takes time so you have to make sure the changes take hold...

I hope I got this right as I'm kinda new here. Hopefully someone will jump in if it's not.

 

[Methuselah]

This is a layman’s explanation but —> the cell initially produces chlorine if salt is present, if bromide is also present then the chlorine it produces gets turned into bromine. If bromide is present, Any chlorine added will be turned into bromine - whether it comes from a swg or not.

Does this mean the CHL generated by the SWG gets turned into bromine, or that the CHL converts the bromide to bromine?

I'm trying to understand, and this explanation is the clearest I recall seeing

Thanks!!!

 

[caleb0286]

Here’s what the dichlor should have done which doesn’t look too detrimental
View attachment 465232
Can you post all your current results?
I am also thinking you over shot the sodium bromide (although you followed the manual)
It would have been much cheaper & simpler to just use pool salt (which is $6 for 40#) to reach the desired salinity & then use a small amount of sodium bromide (ounces instead of pounds) to create your “bromide bank”.
The manual makes it seem as if the cell produces bromine directly based on what salt you use - that is not actually what happens. (This is a layman’s explanation but —> the cell initially produces chlorine if salt is present, if bromide is also present then the chlorine it produces gets turned into bromine. If bromide is present, Any chlorine added will be turned into bromine - whether it comes from a swg or not.
Hopefully @JoyfulNoise or @JamesW can elaborate & determine where to go from here.

So I will just drain the tub and refill as if I'm going to use NaCl, get salinity to around 1800ppm after balancing TA and all that fun stuff

How do I know how much sodium bromide to have as my bromide bank while using the SWG?

 

[Mdragger88]

Does this mean the CHL generated by the SWG gets turned into bromine, or that the CHL converts the bromide to bromine?

I'm trying to understand, and this explanation is the clearest I recall seeing

Thanks!!!

Excerpt from this article—> Sodium Bromide - Further Reading

 

[Mdragger88]

So I will just drain the tub and refill as if I'm going to use NaCl, get salinity to around 1800ppm after balancing TA and all that fun stuff

How do I know how much sodium bromide to have as my bromide bank while using the SWG?

Before you go draining let’s see what the others have to say about the color & possibilities.
As for the bromide bank you would follow this guide (step 2)

How do I use Bromine in my spa (or pool)?

Originally Posted by waterbear There is a lot of misinformation on the proper way to use Bromine so I hope this primer is helpful. First, you need to establish a bromide reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do it by themselves but it can take literally weeks until enough dissolves. Some...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Mdragger88]

for your bromide bank start up it looks like you would start with 1/2 oz per 100 gallons - so a little over 2 oz for your sized tub with that product since it is 99% sodium bromide.
This should get you to somewhere around 20-30ppm.

 

[caleb0286]

for your bromide bank start up it looks like you would start with 1/2 oz per 100 gallons - so a little over 2 oz for your sized tub with that product since it is 99% sodium bromide.
This should get you to somewhere around 20-30ppm.

So balance water first, then what PPM should I bring the sodium chloride salt up to?
After that's done, add sodium bromide packet, then how much liquid bleach?
After those two steps, then put SWG into the tub and it will be converting all to bromine?

 

[Methuselah]

View attachment 465267
Excerpt from this article—> Sodium Bromide - Further Reading

I thought the first part of my quote was from what you had previously written. The 2nd appears to match the above though, so maybe I misquoted the first part.

I just read the sticky and had to draw pictures as it's all new to me. It's interesting, but as it states, more expensive to run than a CHL/CYA tub? I like the advantages, but I don't mind daily dosing.

The above writeup is good ! Are you running a bromine setup?

 

[caleb0286]

for your bromide bank start up it looks like you would start with 1/2 oz per 100 gallons - so a little over 2 oz for your sized tub with that product since it is 99% sodium bromide.
This should get you to somewhere around 20-30ppm.

I guess the confusing part is that if I have say 1500ppm of Sodium Chloride, having only 30ppm of sodium bromide in the tub means that my SWG will now make bromine?

The tub will be bromine instead of chlorine even though NaCl is 1500ppm and NaBr is only 30ppm?

 

[Mdragger88]

So balance water first, then what PPM should I bring the sodium chloride salt up to?
After that's done, add sodium bromide packet, then how much liquid bleach?
After those two steps, then put SWG into the tub and it will be converting all to bromine?

The manual states 500-2000ppm when using sodium chloride.

Caleb,
It’s possible that currently you just have high sanitizer level which is causing metals to show themselves.
That can be dealt with without the need to drain & refill by filtering with polyfill as the simplest solution.

Iron Fill Water Filter - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Then upon the next refill you can go the regular salt route + regular sodium bromide bank of 20-30ppm which would be less spendy than your current setup.

Upon first glance it struck me as odd that the smarter spa manual would suggest such large amounts of sodium bromide but upon further investigation I see that method is plausible, as they aren’t the only bromine generator available for spas. It’s just not a really common method.
My point is that the large amount of sodium bromide isn’t hurting anything by being in the water (except your wallet- which already happened).
It’s not all “active” persay, it is just sitting there in reserve until it is activated by an oxidizer (chlorine, ozone, mps) & then some of it becomes bromine depending upon how much oxidizer you have added - you want to maintain your bromine level somewhere between 3-5ppm as mentioned in the bromine sticky I posted earlier (it is also pinned at the top of this subforum)
Have you tested to see what the current bromine level & other parameters are?
Please do so & post them here.

 

[caleb0286]

The manual states 500-2000ppm when using sodium chloride.

Caleb,
It’s possible that currently you just have high sanitizer level which is causing metals to show themselves.
That can be dealt with without the need to drain & refill by filtering with polyfill as the simplest solution.

Iron Fill Water Filter - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Then upon the next refill you can go the regular salt route + regular sodium bromide bank of 20-30ppm which would be less spendy than your current setup.

Upon first glance it struck me as odd that the smarter spa manual would suggest such large amounts of sodium bromide but upon further investigation I see that method is plausible, as they aren’t the only bromine generator available for spas. It’s just not a really common method.
My point is that the large amount of sodium bromide isn’t hurting anything by being in the water (except your wallet- which already happened).
It’s not all “active” persay, it is just sitting there in reserve until it is activated by an oxidizer (chlorine, ozone, mps) & then some of it becomes bromine depending upon how much oxidizer you have added - you want to maintain your bromine level somewhere between 3-5ppm as mentioned in the bromine sticky I posted earlier (it is also pinned at the top of this subforum)
Have you tested to see what the current bromine level & other parameters are?
Please do so & post them here.

Bromide strips just showed up from Amazon, my bromide level is about 3100ppm, which the SWG manual says have bromine between 1500-3000
Maybe replace a third of the water with fresh water?

 

[caleb0286]

The manual states 500-2000ppm when using sodium chloride.

Caleb,
It’s possible that currently you just have high sanitizer level which is causing metals to show themselves.
That can be dealt with without the need to drain & refill by filtering with polyfill as the simplest solution.

Iron Fill Water Filter - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Then upon the next refill you can go the regular salt route + regular sodium bromide bank of 20-30ppm which would be less spendy than your current setup.

Upon first glance it struck me as odd that the smarter spa manual would suggest such large amounts of sodium bromide but upon further investigation I see that method is plausible, as they aren’t the only bromine generator available for spas. It’s just not a really common method.
My point is that the large amount of sodium bromide isn’t hurting anything by being in the water (except your wallet- which already happened).
It’s not all “active” persay, it is just sitting there in reserve until it is activated by an oxidizer (chlorine, ozone, mps) & then some of it becomes bromine depending upon how much oxidizer you have added - you want to maintain your bromine level somewhere between 3-5ppm as mentioned in the bromine sticky I posted earlier (it is also pinned at the top of this subforum)
Have you tested to see what the current bromine level & other parameters are?
Please do so & post them here.

So after reading a lot of what you linked earlier, low pH will cause bromine to turn yellow. For fun, I decided to add a cup of sodium bicarbonate and I kid you not, the tub turned a pretty blue.
I'm convinced that I was a victim of the phenol red activating improper readings because of the bromine.

 

[Mdragger88]

High sanitizer levels above 10ppm most certainly do affect the ph test generally making it read higher than it actually is which can lead to over dosing with acid.
What is your ta & ph now after the baking soda addition?
And your bromine level?
If the bromine level is still above 10ppm
you can get an accurate ph reading by doing this
{A better way to test pH in high FC water (below 20ppm) is to mix a 1:1 solution of pool water with DISTILLED water. Then test pH. Doing that will cut the FC down by half but have almost no effect on pH (due to the much higher alkalinity of pool water compared to distilled water).[4]
Distilled water is typically at a pH of 6.9-7.0. It has zero carbonate alkalinity and no mineral hardness. Diluting a pool water sample with it doesn’t change anything since the alkalinity of the pool water will resist any changes to pH introduced by the distilled water.}

As for the salt- I do not think you really need to drain or replace water because of a 100ppm salt discrepancy. If the cell is happy it is fine.
You will likely need to add a little water before long anyway to replace splashout.

After the ph is in the 7’s & ta is 50+
Just Follow the guide for maintaining here
How do I use Bromine in my spa (or pool)?
Keeping ph in the 7’s
& bromine in the 4-6 range.
Be sure to let the bromine level fall to below 10ppm before using the spa.