Too Many Options for a Pool in Hamilton

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Derek P

0
Jul 6, 2017
12
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Hello TFP community,

This is my first post at TFP, but I have been using this website as an invaluable resource to learn as much about pools as I can.

I promised my wife that instead of a cottage that I would build a pool for her and our little family (we have 3 children under 5). So our plan is to start this pool and our backyard landscaping next spring. We live just outside of Hamilton, Ontario (Canada), so our pool season is relatively short. We live on just under 2 acres of land, and our house is a partial walkout, so there is a pretty significant slope in the back. This means we will have to put in a number of retaining walls to support one side of the pool.
I have attached our landscape plan drawings.

Poon Pic 1.jpgPoon Pic 2.jpgPoon Pic 3.jpg

The drawings do not quite show the elevations but you can get the idea. The pool equipment will be housed in the garage in the picture.

The plan is to have a 20 x 40 rectangular (my wife likes symmetry) salt water pool. Our water source is a well (with pretty hard water) and septic tank. My hope is to design a relatively low maintenance pool (I plan on doing most of the maintenance myself if i can, with the help of TFP).

I have tried to read as much as i can about the pool options, equipment, etc. but I am finding myself a bit overwhelmed with all the options.

So I have done as much research as i can regarding reputable pool builders in our area. We have gotten quotes for both vinyl liner and fiberglass pools.

I hope the TFP community can help us make some decisions.

1) Our first big decision is of course fiberglass vs vinyl liner (gunite was not an option due to price). Most of the people we know have vinyl liner pools and are very happy. I have read the pros and cons of fiberglass pools, but I truly don't know anyone who has one. Would one be recommended over the other in Canada? The fiberglass quote was a bit more expensive, but factoring in vinyl liner changes it probably evens out. Anyone in Ontario (or the Northern USA) have great or terrible experiences with fiberglass recently? I know it depends on the quality of the PB. Our fiberglass PB also recommended chlorine pucks and ozone instead of SWG for the pool due to the fact he states the salt will damage the fiberglass over time (as well as the equipment). I have read at TFP that ozone and pucks are not recommended, but does salt damage the fiberglass pool? The PB said he would install a SWG if we wanted, but he didn't recommend it.

2) Each PB recommended different equipment, only one used a variety of pool equipment. I understand that if you use 3 or more pieces from the same company that it often extends the warranty for some (i.e Hayward, Sta rite) but would it be better to go with what reviews the best and the lesser warranty? The companies used were Jandy, Hayward and Sta rite.

3) My plan was to go with a large sand filter, but i was concerned regarding the backwashing and loss of water. Would my hard well water be okay to fill the pool as long as i checked the calcium? There is very low iron content but I could have it rechecked just in case.

We originally wanted a Coverstar Autocover, but it was price prohibitive. Especially with the fact it would have to be replaced every 4-5 years. We don't have many trees nearby so we hope the pool will stay relatively clean.

I have so many questions, but I will stop here and be happy to answer any questions about our plans. Any feedback, or insight would be greatly appreciated. I truly would like to thank all of the contributors to TFP for giving their time to help rookies like myself.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Thanks!

Derek P
 
Well hello there! Welcome to TFP! Where we love to teach people how to care for their pools! Oh and to help spend their money LOL

I LOVE the design! Very well thought out for sure!

Fiberglass vs vinyl-both have pros and cons. You CAN use salt with a fiberglass pool. It will not harm it or the equipment.

Equipment-I would keep all of the equipment the same brand for the warranty. If you want to automate it you really need it to all be the same.

I would love to see where the pool is going so I can see what you are dealing with!

Kim:kim:
 
I'm located in Innisfil so about an hour or so from you (further north). Just had a pool built so can answer a number of questions and give you a ton of things to check later.

First if the PB recommends staying away from SWG I'd almost be running to another builder. All manufacturers equipment is now designed to handle salt, that is why they made SWG's. If your really concerned, have a Zinc Anode installed. If you plan to have any exposed metal in the pool then I'd definitely put an anode in there. Otherwise I can't see ever going back to pucks.... I love being able to fully control my system from by phone/tablet including the SWG. Oversize the SWG, don't go with the minimum! You can always undo the unions for the SWG and install a straight pipe if you want to try pucks for a while, no harm there. Just don't add any Salt.

As Kim had said, stick with all one manufacturer if automating. I went with Hayward but others love Pentair etc. Compare them both especially the automation systems. Pentairs head end looked terrible to me (circa 1980's style) but their iOS apps were fine, Hayward uses a touch screen on their head end so looked much more modern (but some here have reported terrible luck with hayward components on here).

We looked at fibreglass but it was WAY out of our price league. Don't forget the upgrades too. I think our basic pool was only in the low 30k but a couple of nicer steps, automation, better equipment and we were well over 50k by then. Then add in the safety cover, water, etc and your heading to 60k. If you have the cash, then don't even think twice about it, go all the way. If you have a budget, plan everything out!

Make sure you have good drainage on your property and under the pool (and around). Fiberglass pools will float out of the ground if you have a crazy water table, since your so close to the lake might want to check that. Have a dewatering system installed under the deep end if you do have a high water table.

The PB should be installing hydrostatic valves in the bottom that will "pop open" if the ground pressure exceeds that of the weight of the water. This is to prevent the fiberglass pool from "floating". Ensure they get installed! If not, make sure they explain 100% why not and get about 50 second opinions. PB's are a crusty lot and "I've been doing this for 30 years and I've never... xxxx". However this year pretty much been the wettest on record and we've never seen rain like this in ages, all their 30 years of experience is out the window.

If you get main drains, have the PB install the line from the drains to the skimmer so you can have the valve running in it. You can always plug it later if you don't like it. It's a great feature that allows the skimmer to still get water if it gets full of leaves. For some reason my PB did not install that line... didn't catch it in time.

Add in all the toys now (or provisions for them) or you'll be digging stuff up later. Well Point(s) at Deep End, Line for auto fill system (conduit to skimmer if you plan to use Jandy Levelor), vacuum line for suction cleaner, conduit for lights/etc around the deck. None of these you may use right away (especially vacuum line for cleaner but I wish I had it as a future option as technology changes) but if you decide to down the road it's not fun digging up the concrete around the pool to put them in.

Make sure the builder leaves PLENTY of room around the pool heater, at least 3 feet on all sides (except rear). Mine was mounted too close and now I have to move everything around as the exhaust cooks everything. Gas guy almost refused to hook it up as it was far too close to the electrical panel (not PB's fault, electricians fault).

Once everything is in and they test the lines (pressure test), make sure your around and record the info. Re-test before adding water. That way you know 100% that there are no leaks in the plumbing and when evaporation or other issues cause water loss, you can at least remove plumbing from your inability to sleep at night (as me how I know...).

Ensure the pipes coming out of the ground "make sense". When it rains, any pipes that are heavily weighed to one side with valves etc WILL move. If they don't balance everything when installing you'll be installing supports later (again, ask me how I know). Tell them not to rush to fill in the ground near the pad until everything is plumbed perfect. That way if one of the pipes is at a silly angle or placement, they can simply move the Tigerflex (or pipe) in the ground to get it to where they want it instead of running some crazy quadruple elbow setup...*sigh*

Another one I only JUST learned the hard way, do not buy the Dolphin Premium Robotic cleaner that seems to be in all the stores here in Southern Ontario. It's a crippled version of the 30i/300i that is exclusively distributed by PoolsuppliesCanada. If you go for a dolphin robotic cleaner and want the top of the line, get the ACTUAL 300i/30i. I think there is a store in Hamilton that carrier the actual 300i but be very careful. Ensure dealer is certified.

If you go Hayward Omnilogic, you can save money on the Colourlogic lights and not buy the network versions as Hayward has stated they will not be making the fancy automatation module for the Omnilogic. Sad really. So you only need the basic low voltage model that the 120v is switched to change lights (Omnilogic handles that fine). Maybe if I complain about it enough on here, Hayward will realize there is a market and produce a module (lol).

If you go with cartridge filter, oversize it as much as you can afford. It won't hurt anything and you'll have more time between cleanings. The cost difference between the sizes is actually pretty cheap.

Go with variable speed pump(s) unless you love paying electrical bills.

Gas is cheap here, go with a nice LARGE NG heater if you like warm water. Especially here in the "frigid" north, oversize this as well.

Ensure all your PVC/CPVC is at least 2 inch, don't let the PB sneak by with 1.5".

Ensure all equipment is installed with Unions, they are cheap and make life so much easier down the road.

Do yourself a favour and read the manuals for the equipment you are buying, you'll learn a ton about the plumbing that the PB has long since forgotten about. Just watch how they install the equipment, I can almost guarantee the manuals are unopened during the install...

I have a ton more but really need to create a single list that I can just add or link to lol. My PB are great people but wow the amount of stuff to watch out for is incredible.

---

Keep us posted as that looks like a nice size!
 
Thanks Thorold for the detailed recommendations. I will be running all of these questions by the PBs we are considering.

Your pool quotes are pretty close to where we are getting them. The fiberglass quote is about 10k more than the vinyl liner ones.

We live on the escarpment, so I am unsure of our water table. My main concern with the fiberglass is the risk of bowing or lifting. I checked with the PB and he does backfill with gravel (which I read was better than sand.... but I could be wrong). My plan was to go SWG all the way, but it made me pause when he recommended chlorine.

We will be getting a large 400btu NG heater. I am leaning towards a large sand filter, but that is still up for debate. Most likely it will be Hayward, which from what I read some of their components get mixed reviews.

We will be putting the equipment indoors, so the heater will be vented outside. But I will double check on the space required.

Once I'm back from work, I'll try and get the landscape pictures.

Derek
 
Have you thought about water management in the garage? I've got an older indoor spa, and its equipment is in my basement workshop room. Whenever there is a problem with any of the equipment, I get water in my workshop. In the three years I've owned it, I've had seals on the pump go twice. Each time the leak was slow and I was around to manage it. I have considerable concerns about it. I've installed a couple of wireless water alarms, but those only really help if I'm close to home.

New equipment may not present a problem, but over time? I'd want the pool equipment outdoors. Depends on if you've got a floor drain in the garage (most homes here don't).
 
Thanks for the questions MikeLWX,

The garage is a detached from our house. The garage is being built soon, and my plan is to have a drain in the concrete going to the side of the garage (which runs to the swale between our houses). I would run the piping from the interior through the floor to the ground (i was planning on leaving an opening in the floor filled with gravel). I am concerned about the water management if something were to leak a lot of water, i hope between the floor drain and the gravel opening it would manage it most of the time.

I am open to suggestions from anyone who has installed their equipment indoors, as i have a bit of time before construction starts.

Thanks

Derek
 
Hi Kimkats,

Yes, there will not be any drywall anywhere around the equipment. I was debating on waterproofing the area like a shower. My brother in law used to work installing tile, so I was debating on doing waterproofing and tile around the area of the equipment. I am toying with the thought of building a small wall around the equipment to keep the water from the rest of the garage (like what you see around a washer and dryer).

Derek
 

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Any kind of filter will lose water in some shape or form. The cartridge filter has to be drained of water before you take the top off. Then when you pull the cartridge out take it outside it will dribble water as you go..........

You are going to have to find a way to get the water out of the garage. Maybe a big shop vac? It can be done. I just wanted to throw out the drywall being a BIG no no due to someone that bought a foreclosed home where they put "lipstick on a pig" :( She had a mess on her hands as the equipment was in a closet with drywall. She found that out real fast. She walked away from the home as there were all kinds of things like that throughout the home.

Kim:kim:
 
So a quick update.

We have decided to go with a vinyl liner pool. 20 x 40. Stairs across one entire side. The deep end, we are debating on ladders (in wall is an option) or putting in some corner stairs to climb out on that side.

Now in talking with my pool builder, he says that he uses tigerflex piping underground, which I have been reading is not recommended. I will be asking him to use rigid pvc piping only, unless there is something I don't know about rigid vs flexible piping.

Now multiple PB have said they use 2" for lines to the equipment but 1.5" for the pool returns. Is everyone getting 2" both directions?

Getting a main drain is optional, but they recommend a dedicated suction line direct to the pump.

My PB says the skimmers come standard with an opening that an autofill system that can be tapped into.

He also questioned the line for dedicated suction cleaner, as most people are using a robotic cleaner (which we will be buying). Are most people getting this suction line put in just in case?

I ran into my cousin who has a much smaller pool (14 x 30) and they installed a heat pump last year (i think he said the brand was Titanium? - not a pool brand) and they told me that they have been able to keep their pool around 80-85 for $150-200 per month (electrical bill) and using a night time solar blanket. They live in Toronto (45 min east of me).
Right now my wife is at home and we have three young kids, so I was debating having a heat pump keeping it warm all the time would be less costly than a large NG 400btu heater. The one big reason I am looking into this is that my gas line has a long way to get to the pool equipment (opposite corner of my house) so it will be very costly.
Anyone in southern ontario with more experience with a heat pump in our area? Or has anyone installed both at the same time?

I saw online a heat pump/AC combo, which seemed really interesting but it wasn't available in Canada. Plus my AC unit is 2.5 years old, so I doubt i could justify replacing it.

Thanks again everyone for all the useful info.

Derek
 
Hi Derek,

I'm just in the middle of my build, so I will leave the equipment recommendations to the experts. But I wanted to comment on your design, which by the way I really like. I too am into symmetry and straight lines. I just have one comment/question about the stairs coming from the house. Since you are going to have the stairs into the pool the entire width of the pool, have you thought about widening the steps from the elevated patio area to the entire width between those two columns? I think it will provide a grander entrance into the backyard and the pool area. Just a thought.
 
Harleysilo - The autocover is still a possibility and was part of our original plan. The cost is prohibitive (16-18k) plus having to replace it every 5 years or so. Even so, I'm tempted to get it with my 3 kids at home. But as you can see, there is a ton of landscaping to do and we are trying to ensure I can retire at some point :). But it isn't a done deal yet.

Chemnut - Is there anything else I should be worried about using the tigerflex underground besides termites?

Tony411LA - My wife would love the grand stairs. I agree it would be spectacular. But for safety and trying to manage the budget, we had to limit the size unfortunately.

Derek
 

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