Test kit in ... let the SLAMing begin!
- Thread starter buballodingo
- Start date
Thats what the algae is saying about the shark
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- Jan 4, 2016
- 5,392
- Pool Size
- 44000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
From the sound of it I mocked ya by saying the yakka's behind you 
Sorry bout that, mate. Glad you got a lot of it done.
Sorry bout that, mate. Glad you got a lot of it done.
I must have done something good...FC dropped by 1 from 12 in 4 hours. Will add 159mL chlorine and test in the morning.
Im not going to add it to the front of the return..I will add it to the gap between the cover and the pool wall then open the pool cover...I am hoping it drags it down with it and sits around the pool cover in the pit.
Im not going to add it to the front of the return..I will add it to the gap between the cover and the pool wall then open the pool cover...I am hoping it drags it down with it and sits around the pool cover in the pit.
Look what I have for you!!! I have this printed out and taped to the inside of the cabinet door I keep the test kit in.
Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule
That cover.......I was so worried when you said you were going to go under it! Thinking the whole time "you better have someone there just in case something goes wrong!". Glad to read you stopped when you felt it was too dangerous. It will take some trial and error but I have faith in the fact you WILL find a way to get it clean and keep it that way no matter how many trips it takes to Bunnings
I want you to think back to when you started this adventure......Look at how far you and your pool have come. You did not even know about the cover and cover box harboring all of those yuckies! Now they will be history and your pool will be even easier to care for!
to the kids. How old are they? I bet it is about to drive them nuts not being able to swim. Tell them Ms. Kim said they could swim in the afternoon when the FC is just under SLAM level. Then Daddy will push it back up for another night of fighting that mean ol' algae!
Kim
Pool School - Basic Pool Care Schedule
That cover.......I was so worried when you said you were going to go under it! Thinking the whole time "you better have someone there just in case something goes wrong!". Glad to read you stopped when you felt it was too dangerous. It will take some trial and error but I have faith in the fact you WILL find a way to get it clean and keep it that way no matter how many trips it takes to Bunnings
I want you to think back to when you started this adventure......Look at how far you and your pool have come. You did not even know about the cover and cover box harboring all of those yuckies! Now they will be history and your pool will be even easier to care for!
to the kids. How old are they? I bet it is about to drive them nuts not being able to swim. Tell them Ms. Kim said they could swim in the afternoon when the FC is just under SLAM level. Then Daddy will push it back up for another night of fighting that mean ol' algae!Kim
Thanks kimkats..they are 10..7..5...going on 18..15...13...i found a right angle attachment to my pressure washer and extension pole...i will try what i have first and if it works there may be a way forward...still waiting for remco to respond...if my covercwas not clear i wouldnt know where the problem was
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Oh I just thought of something...........I think you talked about it way back but wanted to bring it back up...........using a large hose to pour the chlorine into that ends inside the cover box. That way you KNOW the chlorine got in there good.
LOL on the ages! yeah we need to get them in the pool so they will be ready to go to bed and sleep all night so you have some peace and quiet!
Kim
LOL on the ages! yeah we need to get them in the pool so they will be ready to go to bed and sleep all night so you have some peace and quiet!
Kim
Tested this morning at 5:30 as I was up so it ended up being an OCLT test.
Item Test Target
I also tested CYA and CH. CYA was at 30. CH was 175 although we added enough product to get to 250. Is that normal? I will add more chlorine and check again in the afternoon.
A question about total chlorine. I know it is the sum of CC and FC. Assume my total chlorine was 12 yesterday, is it possible that my total chlorine rises in the following manner for e.g.
FC drops by 1 to 11 and CC jumps 4 to make TC 15 or should it still be around the TC mark of the previous measure...
Not sure if that is Clear...another way perhaps of asking is will CC only be equal to the amount of FC that is lost fighting algae?
Item Test Target
| FC | 11.0 | 12.0 |
| CC | 1.5 | 0.0 |
| TC | 12.5 | 12.0 |
| pH | Not tested | |
| TA | Not tested | |
| CH | 175 | 250 |
| CYA | 30 | 30 |
| S | 4800 (assumed not tested) |
A question about total chlorine. I know it is the sum of CC and FC. Assume my total chlorine was 12 yesterday, is it possible that my total chlorine rises in the following manner for e.g.
FC drops by 1 to 11 and CC jumps 4 to make TC 15 or should it still be around the TC mark of the previous measure...
Not sure if that is Clear...another way perhaps of asking is will CC only be equal to the amount of FC that is lost fighting algae?
WHAT???? LOL
Okay what you are asking is if the CC should equal the amount of FC lost during the OCLT right?
I don't know as I have never thought of it in that light. That will be something to keep an eye on just to see.
My guts says it is not always equal because there are many factors each day/night like brushing, stuff in pool, swimmer load, not brushing, ect that will make things change. BUT it is something I am going to really look at with your pool and others as they are being cleared.............love learning stuff!
Kim
Okay what you are asking is if the CC should equal the amount of FC lost during the OCLT right?
I don't know as I have never thought of it in that light. That will be something to keep an eye on just to see.
My guts says it is not always equal because there are many factors each day/night like brushing, stuff in pool, swimmer load, not brushing, ect that will make things change. BUT it is something I am going to really look at with your pool and others as they are being cleared.............love learning stuff!
Kim
Regarding your chemistry table, I would use more CYA, probably 50 ppm to 70 ppm and FC at 5 to 10. The FC is going to need to find it's way into the cover vault and guides, so I wouldn't go below 10% of CYA. That's just an opinion with no experience to base it on, but I can't imagine that circulation will be great in there. It might be worthwhile to figure out a way to force pool water exchange into there, and I thought of you when I fished a mega-monster-pump-action-ninja-diehard-rambo watergun out of the pool this morning.I guess the more often it deploys/retracts will be the best help.
With respect to water balance, I would not add additional CH to go any higher than 250 until you've had time to observe how your chemistry fluctuates. Replacement water will always be carrying a bit in, and it will only exit via overflow. I raised mine to 325 ppm and I regret it, but it's certainly manageable.
Thanks Caco and needsajet...finally got to read some of this use info.
So running CYA at optimal 60 for example mean FC will be minimum 6 probably at optimal. That is much higher thank I expected to be honest. Obviously all I had to go off is the pool shop till today and I can understand now why they would like to keep my FC lower. Have I interpreted this right? Just re running the numbers
You are correct in your numbers.
The thing about the Pool $tores and such is they do not recognize the relationship between FC and CYA. The Pool industry has not caught up yet. They are still using data and ideas from the 70s. There are many science papers to back up the levels and ideas TFP uses if you care to read them. I will tell you they make my head hurt LOL but they are out there.
Kim
The thing about the Pool $tores and such is they do not recognize the relationship between FC and CYA. The Pool industry has not caught up yet. They are still using data and ideas from the 70s. There are many science papers to back up the levels and ideas TFP uses if you care to read them. I will tell you they make my head hurt LOL but they are out there.
Kim
Good afternoon Buba
Geez talk about some mind bending questions. Nice that you are not taking things at face value and asking questions, even if it is making my head hurt
The basis for our levels of FC to CYA are based on the latest industry research and a lot of that can be found on this forum. A user by the name of chemgeek (Richard Falk) wrote papers on the CYA / FC relationship that we base our methods on. If you search under his name you can find a whole heap of information, most of which goes well over my head. There are some other users on here that really understand the chemistry of it all
But basically when you add the CYA to the pool it does two things. It protects the FC from UV degradation, meaning it last for hours/days in the pool instead of minutes. Unprotected FC will halve every 30 mins around noon without it. The CYA also combines chemically with the water to hold a significant portion of the FC in reserve, leaving only a small part of the FC actually 'active'. When the 'active' chlorine is diminished the 'reserve' chlorine is released to top up the 'active' part
The actual active part of the FC, with CYA present is actually quite small. In your supply water there was FC and CC (monochloromine) used for disinfection at rates of FC 0.04 and CC 0.6-1.4 in ppm. Australian drinking water guidelines allow up to 5ppm FC and 3ppm CC for drinking water. So when you take a shower you are bathing in water that has a lot more active chlorine than your pool
The information below should clarify the exact relationship and is extracted from The Chlorine/CYA Relationship and implications on Nitrogen Trichloride by Richard Falk
This comes from this post https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/63526-Chlorine-CYA-relationship
Geez talk about some mind bending questions. Nice that you are not taking things at face value and asking questions, even if it is making my head hurt
The basis for our levels of FC to CYA are based on the latest industry research and a lot of that can be found on this forum. A user by the name of chemgeek (Richard Falk) wrote papers on the CYA / FC relationship that we base our methods on. If you search under his name you can find a whole heap of information, most of which goes well over my head. There are some other users on here that really understand the chemistry of it all
But basically when you add the CYA to the pool it does two things. It protects the FC from UV degradation, meaning it last for hours/days in the pool instead of minutes. Unprotected FC will halve every 30 mins around noon without it. The CYA also combines chemically with the water to hold a significant portion of the FC in reserve, leaving only a small part of the FC actually 'active'. When the 'active' chlorine is diminished the 'reserve' chlorine is released to top up the 'active' part
The actual active part of the FC, with CYA present is actually quite small. In your supply water there was FC and CC (monochloromine) used for disinfection at rates of FC 0.04 and CC 0.6-1.4 in ppm. Australian drinking water guidelines allow up to 5ppm FC and 3ppm CC for drinking water. So when you take a shower you are bathing in water that has a lot more active chlorine than your pool
The information below should clarify the exact relationship and is extracted from The Chlorine/CYA Relationship and implications on Nitrogen Trichloride by Richard Falk
This comes from this post https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/63526-Chlorine-CYA-relationship
- Jan 4, 2016
- 5,392
- Pool Size
- 44000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
Very helpful excerpts from Caco!
The other thing that helped me understand and accept the TFPC system, is that we measure "Free Chlorine" because it's easy and cheap to measure, not because FC is what kills algae and pathogens. So this is a number that can be readily used for pool chemistry management. FC includes all forms of chlorine we care about, including the roughly 95% of it that's tied up with CYA. If we could measure "Active Chlorine" cheaply and with sufficient accuracy for pool management, we wouldn't even be talking about this
And if you want, you can stay within "industry" guidelines that would be used by a commercial pool in Australia. Just stay at 30 ppm CYA and use 3 ppm FC. Your pool will be fine. You won't get all the advantages of TFPC (like lowest possible SWC run time and therefore lowest possible MA additions), but your pool will work properly. If I did this, I would also keep TA at the "industry" bare minimum to avoid excessive MA additions as well. I'm not recommending this, but if you want to gain comfort while adapting to TFPC, that is an option that will work.
I just did a 2.5 day SLAM of my own pool. My CYA was dropping a bit, around 50, so it was a good time to be sure any nasties from the Christmas thrashing are all gone, before I raise my CYA to 80. On Sunday night, the pool was still coming off SLAM, with 11 ppm FC. There were 6 grandies and 3 adults that swam. No one had any idea. No sore eyes, no smells, nothing. Pool services come in and whack 15-20 ppm in and say not to swim for a day. You can well imagine that the next day it's still 10-15 ppm FC. So anyway, just trying to put things in perspective. Free Chlorine is not what you feel. You might feel high Active Chlorine (and it wears out elastic in swimwear) at an indoor commercial pool using 2 ppm FC and no CYA. You will definitely feel and smell CC when a pool is not well maintained, e.g. "motel pool smell"
But if you come over when our pool has 80 ppm CYA and 10-15 ppm FC, there's no way you'll know unless I tell you. Lots of people come here and say... "oh this is a salt pool, i love swimming with no chlorine." And I just grin
The other thing that helped me understand and accept the TFPC system, is that we measure "Free Chlorine" because it's easy and cheap to measure, not because FC is what kills algae and pathogens. So this is a number that can be readily used for pool chemistry management. FC includes all forms of chlorine we care about, including the roughly 95% of it that's tied up with CYA. If we could measure "Active Chlorine" cheaply and with sufficient accuracy for pool management, we wouldn't even be talking about this
And if you want, you can stay within "industry" guidelines that would be used by a commercial pool in Australia. Just stay at 30 ppm CYA and use 3 ppm FC. Your pool will be fine. You won't get all the advantages of TFPC (like lowest possible SWC run time and therefore lowest possible MA additions), but your pool will work properly. If I did this, I would also keep TA at the "industry" bare minimum to avoid excessive MA additions as well. I'm not recommending this, but if you want to gain comfort while adapting to TFPC, that is an option that will work.
I just did a 2.5 day SLAM of my own pool. My CYA was dropping a bit, around 50, so it was a good time to be sure any nasties from the Christmas thrashing are all gone, before I raise my CYA to 80. On Sunday night, the pool was still coming off SLAM, with 11 ppm FC. There were 6 grandies and 3 adults that swam. No one had any idea. No sore eyes, no smells, nothing. Pool services come in and whack 15-20 ppm in and say not to swim for a day. You can well imagine that the next day it's still 10-15 ppm FC. So anyway, just trying to put things in perspective. Free Chlorine is not what you feel. You might feel high Active Chlorine (and it wears out elastic in swimwear) at an indoor commercial pool using 2 ppm FC and no CYA. You will definitely feel and smell CC when a pool is not well maintained, e.g. "motel pool smell"
But if you come over when our pool has 80 ppm CYA and 10-15 ppm FC, there's no way you'll know unless I tell you. Lots of people come here and say... "oh this is a salt pool, i love swimming with no chlorine." And I just grin
In answer to your CC question basically no is the correct answer
1 FC 'used up' by killing something does not equal 1 CC
There are 13 reactions going on simultaneously and to be honest I dont really understand much but the info I have read goes something like this
There are 4 main reactions:
(1) HOCl + NH3 -> NH2Cl + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Ammonia -> Monochloramine + Water
(2) HOCl + NH2Cl -> NHCl2 + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Monochloramine -> Dichloramine + Water
(3) HOCl + NHCl2 -> NCl3 + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Dichloramine -> Nitrogen Trichloride + Water
(4) NHCl2 + NCl3 + 2H2O -> 2HOCl + N2(g) + 3H+ + 3Cl‐ Dichloramine + Nitrogen Trichloride + Water -> Hypochlorous Acid + Nitrogen Gas + Hydrogen Ion + Chloride Ion
The first reaction producing monochloramine is by far the fastest. It is over 95% complete in one minute when the FC is around 10% of the CYA and the ammonia is much less than the chlorine so that the chlorine level remains fairly constant. With no CYA, the reaction is mostly complete in a couple of seconds. The subsequent reactions are far slower
I wouldnt worry about TC, the constituent parts of FC and CC are more important to track
1 FC 'used up' by killing something does not equal 1 CC
There are 13 reactions going on simultaneously and to be honest I dont really understand much but the info I have read goes something like this
There are 4 main reactions:
(1) HOCl + NH3 -> NH2Cl + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Ammonia -> Monochloramine + Water
(2) HOCl + NH2Cl -> NHCl2 + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Monochloramine -> Dichloramine + Water
(3) HOCl + NHCl2 -> NCl3 + H2O Hypochlorous Acid + Dichloramine -> Nitrogen Trichloride + Water
(4) NHCl2 + NCl3 + 2H2O -> 2HOCl + N2(g) + 3H+ + 3Cl‐ Dichloramine + Nitrogen Trichloride + Water -> Hypochlorous Acid + Nitrogen Gas + Hydrogen Ion + Chloride Ion
The first reaction producing monochloramine is by far the fastest. It is over 95% complete in one minute when the FC is around 10% of the CYA and the ammonia is much less than the chlorine so that the chlorine level remains fairly constant. With no CYA, the reaction is mostly complete in a couple of seconds. The subsequent reactions are far slower
I wouldnt worry about TC, the constituent parts of FC and CC are more important to track
Great post Needsajet 
Just to add to that, its not the FC that swimmers notice its the CC
You dont notice FC levels of 4ppm when it comes out of your tap after all
And that is the reason the industry adopted 3ppm of FC in swimming pools. The EPA had a 'safe level' of 4ppm FC for drinking water, so they therefore thought to set the level of FC at 3ppm for swimming pools, to give a bit more tolerance/ safety margin to homeowners who would be treating/sanitising their pool water.
The buffering effect of CYA is why even just below slam levels people do not comment on how harsh the water is, usually they dont even notice
To continue my quotes from chemgeek, I do miss his posts, even though I only really understood every 10th word or so...
Just to add to that, its not the FC that swimmers notice its the CC
You dont notice FC levels of 4ppm when it comes out of your tap after all
And that is the reason the industry adopted 3ppm of FC in swimming pools. The EPA had a 'safe level' of 4ppm FC for drinking water, so they therefore thought to set the level of FC at 3ppm for swimming pools, to give a bit more tolerance/ safety margin to homeowners who would be treating/sanitising their pool water.
The buffering effect of CYA is why even just below slam levels people do not comment on how harsh the water is, usually they dont even notice
To continue my quotes from chemgeek, I do miss his posts, even though I only really understood every 10th word or so...
I think thats is payback from you Caco...my head is smashed reading that
Lol, I know how you feel, this sort of chemistry is well outside my area of expertise too
If all you can take away from this is:
There is more active chlorine in my shower, even up to slam levels
Its the nasty used up chlorine (CC) that smells bad and irritates
You can swim up to slam level, but it pays to shower after to remove the nasty chlorine
At these levels the FC wont hurt anything in my pool, because the higher active FC in the shower doesnt hurt the stainless steel or tile
I've seen a heap of numbers that prove it, even if I dont understand them
Then I think you are good to go. Its all you really need to know
I wont be able to attend to my pool from this friday to monday...During this period what do I need to do...I sure hope the SLAM is done...what if it isnt?
Three options I can see
Dose it to slam levels just before you go and switch on the swg to maintain
Ask a friend to drop by daily and put some chlorine in the pool
Rise to mustard levels and leave, without putting on the swg
I hope you are finished by then too, but like I said, hard to know when you will be
Dose it to slam levels just before you go and switch on the swg to maintain
Ask a friend to drop by daily and put some chlorine in the pool
Rise to mustard levels and leave, without putting on the swg
I hope you are finished by then too, but like I said, hard to know when you will be