Test kit? High PH creep?

I purchased the test kit promoted by this site....TF-100. I assumed someone here is the one that sells it. (Smart marketing) I test probably too much but that's OK. I have compared my results with the PS just for giggles and they are always different, and I trust my testing over their testing. Its nice to be able to walk in knowing what I need instead of relying on the PS. Also nice knowing all the alternatives to the PS. I have always had crystal clear water. However, I will say this, the last couple of times I let them test my water, they didn't try to sell me anything.....hmmm...reverse psychology?? :)

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I purchased the test kit promoted by this site....TF-100. I assumed someone here is the one that sells it. (Smart marketing) I test probably too much but that's OK. I have compared my results with the PS just for giggles and they are always different, and I trust my testing over their testing. Its nice to be able to walk in knowing what I need instead of relying on the PS. Also nice knowing all the alternatives to the PS. I have always had crystal clear water. However, I will say this, the last couple of times I let them test my water, they didn't try to sell me anything.....hmmm...reverse psychology?? :)

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Good to see another NE Arkansan! Welcome
 
From OP: Thanks to everyone; especially chem geek; Lots of info to digest; ph creep has slowed; after 1 1/2 yrs of it; suspect that it's the first time I've let TA stay below 55, as suggested on this thread, long enough to notice the difference; will test TA tomorrow; but ph test suddenly taking days to turn brighter red; ordering TF100 kit Tuesday and maybe get more trustworthy results and confirm all numbers are close to what I've been getting;; will check in then.

My PS has always been good to me. They gave me a good deal on the pool; delivery and set up was flawless; they test for free;, but don't set the products on the counter expecting me to buy; they read the report; and tell me what I need, which I mostly ignore, but they don't care. I buy brushes, equipment, Cal-hypo and dichlor (occasionally) from them, because they are competitively priced with Walmart. Now they ain't perfect, because they don't subscribe to TFP methods of pool care and don't even carry liquid chlorine and they do stupid stuff like recommend CH for vinyl pool owners, but I think they mean well; they just don't know how easy pool care can be, and if they did learn, they probably would,'t subscribe to it just because how much they'd lose in chemical sales.

But I get what everyone is saying...so I'm getting the tester to test it all at home and will still get equipment, CYA, and granualized chlorine from them when I'm using it for a specific purpose. Maybe even ask the management about helping their customers by teaching TFPC methods and carry the products to back it up; at least embrace it as one alternative method of pool care; sort of like bromine method. If that happened, would they be the first?

Geek asked about bleach. I've been using DG labeled @ 8.25%. Always fresh on the shelf; plenty in stock and convenient; and about the only one easy for me to pick up w/o a hassle that actually list concentration, but I'll look at threads on here and try another brand or two to see what happens.
 
Does that bleach have a date code on it? You have no idea how long it sat in the warehouse. Better safe than sorry.

We had one member that bought several bottles of bleach from a big box store. It turned out to be mostly water due to age. Once she learned to read the date codes and got fresh bleach her pool started clearing up!

Kim
 
I can say, I found it extremely easy to use the TFP method. A bag of "shock" costs around $3.00. I can get a gallon of 10% or so at my local Sav a Lot for less than that. A bag of powder lasts through maybe 3/4 of an application. A gallon of bleach can last through at least 4-5. (Going from memory, using approximations.) I spent less than $30. the whole season last year, not including the test kit, on chemicals for my 18'x48" pool. And that included a jug of PH down at the end of the season, as my PH runs low. I only used it once, so I have the remainder for this season. I did not have to SLAM, though I got green in mid-September, due to a death in the family and other chaos. I learned the most in the beginning by reading questions and problem threads others have had. It helped make the pool school articles make more sense. TFP works best when followed pretty preciselY at first, then you get to know your pools quirks, and it's so easy! Welcome to the TFP family!
 
I want to say welcome and I commend you for researching and learning. I also want to stay that if you ever have a question that you can't find an answer to in the reading, just ask!

Someone is always willing to help, so don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Help is here!


[emoji176] Lisa P.
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I want to say welcome and I commend you for researching and learning. I also want to stay that if you ever have a question that you can't find an answer to in the reading, just ask! Someone is always willing to help, so don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Help is here!


[emoji176] Lisa P.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes that is very true! This site and its people are amazing.

Preliminary, it seems as though my care problem is solved running my pool below the normal recommended TA level as suggested by Chem Geek. My current kit recently turned the vial clear after 4 drops on the TA acid-drop test, which indicates TA @ 40ish and PH is staying steady. Unlike before my inquiry, I'm leaving it alone for now with the TA out of normal range. I've already gone from testing PH nearly every day and adding acid at least every other day, to testing only every second or third day and haven't added acid in over a week. Prior to my inquiry, I would have immediately added enough BS to bring it back into the 70-90 range as soon as I found the TA to be that low. And then probably the next day my PH would be over 7.8; I'd add 7 oz's of acid and PH test the next day. After a week or so, I'd test TA and find it low again; it was a viscous cycle, and I wasn't executing TFPC as easy as it is written, and this is the whole reason for my inquiry.

I'm still using the same DG bleach, because I have about three bottles on hand. That DG bleach has always given me very close to the expected movement in FC close to the calculator estimates, so I don't think, if there is a problem with that brand of bleach, it's a chlorine concentration problem or an out-of-date issue, but rather, if there is a problem, it would be with purity (too much lye) as Chem Geek has suggested as a possibility.

When my Taylor kit arrives, I'll check all levels and see where my pool is truly at. It could be that I've been keeping TA at, near or above the TFP recommended levels of 70-90 without knowing it using an inferior kit and the pool store to confirm it. When I get the kit, I'll report back all levels. In the interim, I'll just keep a close watch on the TA and PH.

If my TA is truly at or about 40, are there some special precautions or risks in maintaining this level that is about 1/2 the recommended level?

I would assume that I shouldn't add anything acidic in the pool including MA, Trichlor, dichlor, or even CYA w/o first getting TA in range. Is my thinking right?
 
Save a Lot has 10% bleach?

My pool usually asks for a SLAM due to cc's showing up about every 4th week after the initial Spring period in which SLAMS are required more often.

Last year it got very, very easy towards the end of summer. Chlorine was being consumed so consistently each day that I got to the point where I didn't have to FC test every day. I knew that about 14-16 ounces would keep me at the level I needed for the CYA level that I was at during that time (around 50) with the days getting relatively short (it was more chlorine of course during the middle of Summer), but I always tested at least every-other-day, so that I would stay on track. But this year, there have been so many cloudy and rainy days that it has varied too much from day to day to get such a good feel for it, and so I haven't yet got a feel for what a cloudless day requires in chlorine.

I think my costs and time spent will be much like PAGirl's once I can get where I'm just testing and adding bleach mostly each day. I've been in that place before; and it's very, very easy. Even with the MA and BS bs, it's still not that hard or expensive, and I've always got a nearly-perfect pool to swim in.

We settled for an 18' round, because our septic's in the back yard with the pool and it's all we could do in the back yard with field lines and didn't want a front-yard pool. I'm so glad the 18' was all we could get, because it's perfect for the two of us; easy and cheap to maintain and with a good-size pump and filter. The only thing bad about the small pool is when one wishes to swim around it, two laps and the wake is too big to keep swimming in comfort. So one has to swim a while and run a while, then swim a while; but it's all good.
 
It will be interesting to see what the TF100 says about TA and PH. It is most important to maintain your PH. FC, and CYA.

At the bottom of pool math, there is a place where you show the effects of adding a particular type of chemical - it will show how it effects the ph, etc.

I'm not sure if CYA would effect the TA much at all, but I'm still learning. Your test kit should be in soon, but I'm interested to see what other, more experienced TFPers, say about your TA number. My Pool likes a 50-60 TA, to keep my PH from rising too quickly and it seems to work well for me so far. I've read that pools just have their own personalities. [emoji6]


[emoji176] Lisa P.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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If my TA is truly at or about 40, are there some special precautions or risks in maintaining this level that is about 1/2 the recommended level?

I would assume that I shouldn't add anything acidic in the pool including MA, Trichlor, dichlor, or even CYA w/o first getting TA in range. Is my thinking right?

To answer that question, I need to know your pH and CYA levels. That way I can calculate the actual carbonate alkalinity. That's the main pH buffer that prevents a "crash" of pH downward from acid sources.

Your thinking is correct that the main risk you have at the low TA level is that you don't have much pH buffering against acidic sources. That's why I want you to tell me your pH and CYA so I can tell you exactly how much acid or Trichlor or Dichlor or MPS you would have to add before a "crash" in pH. It will give you some sense for the risk level.

Also note that you can minimize the amount of acid you need to add by not only targeting the lower TA, but also a higher pH, say around 7.7 or 7.8. Don't try and lower the pH below 7.5. That will help reduce the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing. The amount of over-carbonation of the water at various pH and TA levels is given in this chart.

The use of 50 ppm Borates would be another optional item to provide more pH buffering, but primarily against a rise in pH since the borates buffer gets stronger at higher pH. It won't help against a pH "crash" going down in pH (i.e. against acids) since the borates buffer gets weaker as the pH drops. You can see the relative buffer strengths at various pH for the carbonate, CYA and borates buffers in the thread pH Buffer Capacity.
 
Save a Lot has 10% bleach?

My pool usually asks for a SLAM due to cc's showing up about every 4th week after the initial Spring period in which SLAMS are required more often.

Last year it got very, very easy towards the end of summer. Chlorine was being consumed so consistently each day that I got to the point where I didn't have to FC test every day. I knew that about 14-16 ounces would keep me at the level I needed for the CYA level that I was at during that time (around 50) with the days getting relatively short (it was more chlorine of course during the middle of Summer), but I always tested at least every-other-day, so that I would stay on track. But this year, there have been so many cloudy and rainy days that it has varied too much from day to day to get such a good feel for it, and so I haven't yet got a feel for what a cloudless day requires in chlorine.

I think my costs and time spent will be much like PAGirl's once I can get where I'm just testing and adding bleach mostly each day. I've been in that place before; and it's very, very easy. Even with the MA and BS bs, it's still not that hard or expensive, and I've always got a nearly-perfect pool to swim in.

We settled for an 18' round, because our septic's in the back yard with the pool and it's all we could do in the back yard with field lines and didn't want a front-yard pool. I'm so glad the 18' was all we could get, because it's perfect for the two of us; easy and cheap to maintain and with a good-size pump and filter. The only thing bad about the small pool is when one wishes to swim around it, two laps and the wake is too big to keep swimming in comfort. So one has to swim a while and run a while, then swim a while; but it's all good.


My mistake, double checked, it's 8.25%. I don't know why I was thinking it was higher.
 
To answer that question, I need to know your pH and CYA levels. That way I can calculate the actual carbonate alkalinity. That's the main pH buffer that prevents a "crash" of pH downward from acid sources.

Your thinking is correct that the main risk you have at the low TA level is that you don't have much pH buffering against acidic sources. That's why I want you to tell me your pH and CYA so I can tell you exactly how much acid or Trichlor or Dichlor or MPS you would have to add before a "crash" in pH. It will give you some sense for the risk level.

Also note that you can minimize the amount of acid you need to add by not only targeting the lower TA, but also a higher pH, say around 7.7 or 7.8. Don't try and lower the pH below 7.5. That will help reduce the rate of carbon dioxide outgassing. The amount of over-carbonation of the water at various pH and TA levels is given in this chart.

The use of 50 ppm Borates would be another optional item to provide more pH buffering, but primarily against a rise in pH since the borates buffer gets stronger at higher pH. It won't help against a pH "crash" going down in pH (i.e. against acids) since the borates buffer gets weaker as the pH drops. You can see the relative buffer strengths at various pH for the carbonate, CYA and borates buffers in the thread pH Buffer Capacity.


I know this would be much easier if I gave you all results from a Taylor or TF-100 kit, but it'll be at least four or five days before it arrives. If you want to tackle this question based on two, three-hour-apart test results from a pool store that I did yesterday after reading your request, go ahead. I've got it below. If not, we can wait until later when I have a complete test kit. I'm not sure if these results are an unusual amount of variance or not for the CYA, but that's what I got on the reports. All the other levels seem pretty consistent to me. I told the pool store folks what I was doing and what was going on. They're cool with it.

FC 4.7 4.2 (My OTO test; dark yellow OTO 5.0ish at or about 4 pm--immediately prior to gathering the first sample taken to PS).
CC 0 0
PH 7.4 7.5 (My tester showed 7.6 immediately prior to gathering the first sample taken to the PS).
TA 43 42 (My acid drop test turns clear after 4 drops; indicating 40ish).
CH 124 121
CYA 40 46 (My tester doesn't test CYA).

I know you stated in an earlier post not to add acid until PH rose above 7.8. That's exactly what I've been doing for many months according to my Swimline PH tester, but now suddenly I've sort of ended up with it staying stable at around 7.6 (according to my test), and 7.4/7.5 (according to the pool store test). Please understand though, I wasn't trying to get PH down to 7.5 and hold it there; I assumed it would come right back up like it has for the last year-and-a-half and all I've been trying to do is keep it in range. I understand what you've written about letting the PH stay as high as 7.8; it's just that the mid 7's is where it's ended up for now, and I've not done anything but daily replenishment of chlorine via bleach since that last adjustment.

I didn't log it, but I think it's been about 6 or 7 days since I made this last PH adjustment. At the time of the last adjustment, the color test was brighter than the 7.8 (sort of in between what the chart shows for 7.8 and 8.0). This is sort of how it's been normally been going for the last year-and-a-half and about the same way I've been adjusting it for the last few months. The calculator shows 6.9 ounces of 31% MA for my pool to move it from 7.9 to 7.5. Whenever it has shown this same brightness of red, I've been adding 7 ounces of MA. Occasionally, I might do the evening test and it'd be slightly brighter than this 7.9 reading, but the day before is was not as bright as 7.8. In those cases, I've been adding 8 oz's. But I've not added more than 8 oz's on any one day since Spring. It just seems like (not for sure, because I didn't document it) that the larger PH drops created more work for me, because the TA would drop out quicker. Using this 7 oz's per adjustment method, I've been testing TA about once per week and adjusting TA about once every two weeks. I used to adjust TA up to about 100 and would take a couple of iterations to get it there. And then I learned that was not the TFP recommendation. I then shot for 80. This probably slowed the PH creep somewhat, but not enough for me to notice it. I guess also that TA 80 could have lowered the natural high PH level for my pool, but I would not have known that since I've always adjusted it once it went above 7.8.

I have never done a PH test result showing yellow, but last year when I'd try letting the PH climb to a very bright red, I might have added as much as 16 oz's. I was doing this to try and do less work, but then it seemed like, at least every time I took notice of it, that every time I did a big PH drop adjustment, it would lose alot of TA. And in those cases, I might get a PH reading as low as 7.2 on my color chart.
 
Using a pH of 7.5, TA of 43 ppm, and CYA of 45 ppm I get a carbonate alkalinity of 28 ppm. In 7600 gallons, your pH would crash at adding around 13 cups of full-strength Muriatic Acid. Adding 5 cups would get you to around a pH of 6.5 (ignoring carbon dioxide outgassing). So while your carbonate alkalinity is low, it is enough to prevent pH crashing unless you were to add too much acid.

So now that your pH is more stable and you are not adding a lot of acid, you are in reasonable shape. Having a vinyl liner helps you a lot since you don't need a higher TA.

So while you are below what we normally say is OK which is around 50 ppm on the low end only for a vinyl pool or in a spa (and this is lower than shown in Recommended Levels), this would be OK in your pool so long as you are careful not to add to much acid over time from any source (that includes Trichlor, MPS, Dichlor). You just don't want to exhaust the little TA buffer that you have, but as I noted it is enough so long as you don't abuse it. One cup of acid would lower the pH from 7.8 to 7.4 and lower the TA by 3.1 ppm. That's a standard rule for your pool regardless of pH and TA level -- one cup of full-strength of acid in your 7600 gallon pool lowers the TA by 3.1 ppm. 9 cups of acid would use up your buffer at normal 7.5 pH (though it takes more to crash because the buffer is stronger at lower pH). If your TA gets lower, you can of course raise it using baking soda.

Up to you if you want to keep things as they are since now you know the effects.

And of course when you get your test kit let's do this again with numbers we can trust, but since the two pool store numbers were close they might be OK.
 
FANTASTIC!

Thanks Chem Geek.

Thanks everyones' help. Showing my spouse how to test yesterday, and the PH had climbed just a tick; right at the 7.8 mark. I won't touch it unless it climbs a little more, but even if I do, at this low TA level, it's going to take probably five times as long to move up between acid doses, so this will be much, much easier to manage. I may later look at adding borates after the new test kit arrives, and I'll be very mindful about how anything with an acid base could cause a crash. But the place I'm at right now is much, much easier care than before. It's like TFPC is supposed to be per instructions. Most of the time I'll just be adding bleach, so I shouldn't have any threat of a PH crash; unless something about the conditions with my pool changes, but I'll be testing enough to discover anything like that. Also, maybe after I get the TF-100 test kit, I'll discover that my TA isn't staying quite as low as I think it is, or conversely, that my PH isn't quite as high as I think it is; though I'd say what we've found together on here isn't too far off from reality.
 
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