Switched from IFCS Original MagnaFlow to A&A Gamma Series 2 and seeing lower pressure at the Valve

[runboy]

Had my pool resurfaced and in the process decided to switch all my pop-ups from the Original MagnaFlow to A&A Gamma Series 2 pop-ups.
Afterwards I'm seeing much lower max pressure at the Valve.
So before running my Pump at 2900 RPM I would typically see around 20PSI at the Filter newly Backwashed and around 17 PSI at the Valve. After switching the heads, I'm seeing 12 PSI at the Valve.
The heads seem to operate fine in my pool except for in my SPA which has a poor design. Basically the SPA has 6 popups all operating on the same port and in addition it sits much higher than the pool does. Since the A&A Gamma Series 2 are adjustable, I had initially set them to 3/8" Orifice rates at 12 GPM comparable to the old heads (Low Flow). I tried to set them to 1/4" Orifice rated at 6 GPM, but the result remains the same. They worked with the old style head.
I have checked the Valve for debris and functionality after the resurface, but didn't see any issues. I have also cleaned the filter (Cartridge) thoroughly The only reason for the lower pressure that I can think of is that there must be less resistance in the new heads, but I don't know if that is plausible since they are rated at the same GPM when adjusted to the same flow rate as the old ones.
One theory I have is that the older style popup had a weaker spring and it was easier for them to extend. The new style seems to have a lot of water escaping if they don't extend fully.
Any suggestions for trouble shooting?

 

[kimkats]

I don't have the answer so here is a bump

 

[runboy]

P


Probably need to rethink the original design completely to solve my problem. Even without supplying any of the water features and bypassing the Heater I have a Bypass Valve, 10x90s and 1x45 Between the filter and the Manifold. I'm loosing 10 PSI+ in the process.

 

[jonpcar]

Hey @runboy , long time no see. Yeah, you’ve got a mess there for IFCS pressure, and I think you are right about the new popups having more gpm flow through them (and thus lower IFCS pressure) despite what the specs say.

A long time ago in a long forgotten thread, we talked about a ‘NEW’ bypass from your filter output directly to the IFCS head….that would probably fix your pressure problems but as you correctly stated back then, would cause you some additional issues. Don’t know how often/when you are returning flow through your IFCS popups…but since all those valves are manual it is probably almost ALL the time that your pump is running except when you are using your spa? That’s painful.

You probably need at least one more automated valve to actually attempt a ‘NEW’ bypass (or new manifold design) that you seem to be considering. Don’t know if you have that capability.

 

[runboy]

Hey @runboy , long time no see. Yeah, you’ve got a mess there for IFCS pressure, and I think you are right about the new popups having more gpm flow through them (and thus lower IFCS pressure) despite what the specs say.

A long time ago in a long forgotten thread, we talked about a ‘NEW’ bypass from your filter output directly to the IFCS head….that would probably fix your pressure problems but as you correctly stated back then, would cause you some additional issues. Don’t know how often/when you are returning flow through your IFCS popups…but since all those valves are manual it is probably almost ALL the time that your pump is running except when you are using your spa? That’s painful.

You probably need at least one more automated valve to actually attempt a ‘NEW’ bypass (or new manifold design) that you seem to be considering. Don’t know if you have that capability.

Now you mention it, I do remember that.
Can’t help but wonder if the original design was different. It seems backwards now the way they did it.
It would actually make more sense if they had hooked it up in the order it’s placed. So first the IFCS so you can run that completely isolated from everything else.
The valve all the way to the right is main pool jet return which would make sence to have last.
It would be costly to change. Don’t see a smart way to cut into it without changing most of the valves.
Adding more automated valves is not a big deal.
Another issue is figuring out where to place my chemical injections section in a redesigned system (Chlorine/Acid/Flow Sensor/Oneway Valve)

 

[jonpcar]

I was not familiar with the Gamma Series 2 popups before I looked at them last night. Those are pretty nice IF the adjustable flow nozzles work…it is very strange that adjusting ?ALL SIX? spa popups to the lowest flow (6 gpm) had no discernible impact on the pressure at the IFCS head for that zone.

Are you positive about that? Is there a chance that there was a PARTIALLY open valve elsewhere (pool/spa/water feature/ heater not bypassed) when you did that test? You did adjust ALL six popups? There’s not a 7th popup on that circuit that is hiding somewhere else…haha, unlikely.

I would try to track down and verify that issue before doing anything drastic…even by taking out a few (2 or 3) of those spa popups and blocking the flow out of them entirely to make sure that is the issue. I suggest popping off those adjustable gizmos and using packing tape from the inside to block the flow, or possibly a small cork in the selected size hole (also from the inside of course).

One thing I don’t understand in your system is WHERE the debris stirred up by the SPA popups is supposed to go? I assume you are 100% suctioning from the pool when the IFCS is actually cleaning. Is the debris supposed be stirred up in the spa, tumble down your overflow stream into the pool, and then get sucked up from the pool’s main drain/skimmer? Hopefully that is NOT the case.

 

[runboy]

I was not familiar with the Gamma Series 2 popups before I looked at them last night. Those are pretty nice IF the adjustable flow nozzles work…it is very strange that adjusting ?ALL SIX? spa popups to the lowest flow (6 gpm) had no discernible impact on the pressure at the IFCS head for that zone.

Are you positive about that? Is there a chance that there was a PARTIALLY open valve elsewhere (pool/spa/water feature/ heater not bypassed) when you did that test? You did adjust ALL six popups? There’s not a 7th popup on that circuit that is hiding somewhere else…haha, unlikely.

I would try to track down and verify that issue before doing anything drastic…even by taking out a few (2 or 3) of those spa popups and blocking the flow out of them entirely to make sure that is the issue. I suggest popping off those adjustable gizmos and using packing tape from the inside to block the flow, or possibly a small cork in the selected size hole (also from the inside of course).

One thing I don’t understand in your system is WHERE the debris stirred up by the SPA popups is supposed to go? I assume you are 100% suctioning from the pool when the IFCS is actually cleaning. Is the debris supposed be stirred up in the spa, tumble down your overflow stream into the pool, and then get sucked up from the pool’s main drain/skimmer? Hopefully that is NOT the case.

I still have the old heads, so I’ll probably try and put them back in the SPA to see what happens. I will be a couple of days before I can troubleshoot.
The Gamma 2s for some reason have a lot of water escaping when not fully extended. Not through the intended hole, but everywhere else.
Yes, the system is not well thought out. What normally happens is that all or I should probably say some of the dirt, gets pushed down to the very bottom of the SPA by the IFCS. A couple of times each week I run an automated cleaning cycle where I isolate the SPA just like I do when I use the heater. This is all automated.
But of course the IFCS is not active when I do this.
So what I probably should do is put a plug in the pop up at the very bottom of the SPA since it really doesn’t have a purpose.

 

[jonpcar]

A repost of your pool/spa for those who wonder what the heck we are talking about, haha. BTW, is your spa actually bigger than your pool? It sure looks like it in the picture.

That kind of IFCS implementation (particularly the spa portion) gives them all a bad name…I’ve seen worse, but probably not in a system that has been in use for 20+ years as yours has.

Your experiment with the old popups will definitely determine if the new ones are causing the problem…I agree with you that if they don’t pop up all the way, there would be a lot of leakage around the tops. Mine are similar to that but I never have to run them at less than required pressure/gpm, so I don’t see that problem. Once confirmed, the question is what to do about it: fix it, improve it, or live with the old popups. Looking forward to see what you find out when you get around to it.

The changes I made to my system a few years ago definitely improved the performance of my 30 year old IFCS system (which I had been satisfied with). In fact, I will be making some additional changes come the fall when it cools down simply because I know there are incremental improvements to be gained (call me a sadist). So it’s almost never too late to make a change.

 

[runboy]

One thing I haven’t really experimented with is increasing the speed of my Pool Pump. It was capped at 2900rpm, but can go up to 3450.
I thought it was capped at 2900 for a reason to not put too much strain on my equipment, but not positive that’s the case.
I installed a vacuum and pressure gauge on that pump just yesterday and I’m well within the max capacity/pressure of my filter.
Going on a trip, but will experiment when I get home. Should be able to get close to 20 psi at the IFCS manifold if I run it at 3450, but the energy usage will probably be insane.
I did change the waterfall going from the SPA to the Pool quite a bit after resurfacing. Birds love it so much I’ve had to put a bird net over it in the summer
Tried everything else pretty much.
Here is the new and improved water feature:

 

[jonpcar]

Your remodel is impressive, and your video shows it off very well. Congratulations!

Increasing your RPM will improve (possibly fix) your spa popups, with the increased energy cost as you said…but I’m not sure you can ever get to an ideal situation without a few significant changes. But that’s possibly for the future. Have a great trip.

 

[runboy]

Your remodel is impressive, and your video shows it off very well. Congratulations!

Increasing your RPM will improve (possibly fix) your spa popups, with the increased energy cost as you said…but I’m not sure you can ever get to an ideal situation without a few significant changes. But that’s possibly for the future. Have a great trip.

Thank you. I’ll keep the thread updated when I get a chance to test some more

 

[runboy]

So I did some more testing of the new heads. If I set the variable pool pump to 3450 RPM, I can indeed achieve 18 psi at the Valve and get the Heads in the SPA working correctly.
Another option is to plug a single of the 6 Heads in the SPA. Then I can get it to operate correctly with 2900 RPM which uses significantly less power.
The main problem with these new heads vs the old ones is that they have a lot of water leakage in the intermediate position before they are fully popped. When my valve transits between two zones, there is a position in the middle where both the old zone and the new zone receives water. This position makes the heads pop to the intermediate position with a lot of water leakage. When the valve has transistioned completely to the new zone, there is still so much leakage in this intermediate position that they wont fully pop when all 6 are in use. If I manually hold a single popup closed during the transition, they pop fully and I can then release the one I was holding down and they all stay in the fully popped position and provides nice jets.
Right now my valve is the older version with the big acrylic balls. I can't help but wonder if some of the newer valve types has a quicker transition between the zones that wouldn't create this weaker pressure during the transition,