SWG Vs Ozone

AK-

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May 11, 2021
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Northwestern NJ
Pool Size
7000
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Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
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CircuPool RJ-30
I’m not trying to create useless discussion, but I can foresee this post being moved here, so saving some trouble and starting it here…

We commonly see on explanations on why Ozone doesn’t work the factual statement that only inside the Ozone cell there is enough Ozone to sanitize the water.

How is that different than the explanation of having a higher CYA with SWG because the concentration of NaClO inside the cell?

I know, the difference is in the residual Ozone Vs residual NaClO in the pool. Any amount of Ozone to be effective as a sanitizer is unsafe for human (at least according to the FDA) while several forms of Chlorine are safe while being effective sanitizers… but am I the only one who has issues with the message?
 
but am I the only one who has issues with the message?
You have the message wrong. :)

Ozone = zero residual sanitizer
SWG = full residual sanitizer

The CYA is higher for the SWG as the unit adds chlorine very slowly, unlike liquid chlorine users that spike the FC in one shot and it drifts down. So SWG pools get more CYA to help buffer the small FC doses over the course of the day.

CYA level is a bleach versus swg thing and ozone is not part of that equation.
 
We commonly see on explanations on why Ozone doesn’t work the factual statement that only inside the Ozone cell there is enough Ozone to sanitize the water.

Ozone only works when it is in actual contact with the water and the pathogen. It has a very low Henry's Law constant which means very little of it dissolves into the water. So it's only when the gas bubbles of ozone are in contact with the water for significant times that they are effective at sanitizing. This is why almost all implementations of ozone sanitation use contact tanks where the amount of ozone held in the tank is sufficient to sanitize and the water flow through the tank is slow enough.

How is that different than the explanation of having a higher CYA with SWG because the concentration of NaClO inside the cell?

This is an entirely different chemical concept. Cyanuric acid is used to react with the chlorine gas that dissolves into the water (chlorine has a much higher Henry's Law constant than ozone) so that it holds the chlorine in reserve and lowers the amount of sanitizing chlorine (hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite anion) that is formed. When chlorine is held in reserve by the CYA molecule, it is chemically attached to the CYA molecule and protected from UV light photolysis. When the SWG creates chlorine gas, the chlorine undergoes hydrolysis (reacts with water molecules) to form hypochlorous acid, HOCl, and hypochlorite anion, OCl-. It can do this for extremely high concentrations of both with or without CYA present (there are practical limits but we are talking parts per thousand, not parts per million). When Ozone is in contact with water, it does not dissolve or hydrolyze into anything else, it remains as ozone gas. And because the Henry's Law constant is so low, the gas immediately escapes to atmosphere rather than stay in the water.
 
@Newdude I may not have made myself clear enough, but I did not get the message wrong. If you read carefully you will see we basically say very similar things.

@JoyfulNoise YES. I know that is the reason. BTW , very well explained.

But let’s pretend I’m a believer in “alternative” methods to sanitize a pool. Without @JoyfulNoise ‘s explanation the foot note for SWG one the CYA chart page is telling me something very similar to the Ozone mumbo jambo it’s advocates say.
 
the foot note for SWG one the CYA chart page is telling me something very similar to the Ozone mumbo jambo it’s advocates
This has been discussed previously as out dated and needing to be removed.

It is now believed that the success with lower SWG FC is due to the constant addition of residual sanitizer to the pool. With less fluctuation than a liquid chlorine dosed pool, one can run lower FC and still remain above minimum.
 
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Ozone is only effective within the cell, and doing absolutely nothing in the main pool vessel, as explained by Matt.
Within the SWG cell, you might have some benefit of a locally increased FC level, but that chlorine eventually ends up in the main pool vessel where it is still effective. That doesn't really have anything to with CYA. I am not so sure about the "super-chlorination" argument with SWGs in the first place. I once took a water sample with a syringe from within the return pipe and measured the FC. It was about 2-3ppm higher compared to the main vessel. Yes, the FC is higher in SWG-cell and return lines, but I wouldn't call it super-chlorination. I think it's more about the steady and reliable chlorine production of an SWG, as already pointed out by Newdude. (EDIT: I should add that this test was done with the SWG running at 100%, which I usually don't do, more like 50%. And my SWG regulates the chlorine output by adjusting the current and therefore the chlorine production per second, rather than the duty cycle as most US-models).

And yes, in older posts there were discussions regarding SWGs being more efficient with higher CYA levels, because the higher CYA might protect the freshly produced chlorine faster from UV. But as Newdude also already pointed out, this theory is no longer supported here.

@mas985 has done a number of tests over the years on the rate of chlorine decay by UV depending on the CYA concentration.
E.g. here:
here:
and here:


These tests have shown that the UV-protection increases with rising CYA-level more than one would expect by only taking the amount of Cl into account that is bound to CYA. The UV-extinction as the light goes deeper seems to play an important role. This results in smaller absolute chlorine losses at higher CYA levels when keeping the FC/CYA-ratio (and therefore the concentration of "active" chlorine, HOCl) constant. And because the steady and reliable chlorine supply of a SWG allows to run lower FC-levels, you can save even more FC from UV-destruction by running a lower FC level at the same FC/CYA-ratio, and basically run with SWG the same FC level at CYA 80ppm that you would run without SWG at CYA 40ppm.

This effect of better FC-protection at higher CYA-levels is generally also valid in non-SWG pools. But the higher CYA-level also increases the required SLAM-FC level, to the degree where the SLAM-FC of 31ppm at 80ppm CYA is getting very difficult to maintain. But with the steady and reliable chlorine supply of a SWG, the chances of slipping below min-FC and start an algae bloom are much smaller than in a manually chlorinated LC-pool. In an SWG-pool it's wort taking that risk and benefit from the reduced absolute chlorine consumption and extend the SWG lifetime. Without an SWG, the risk is not worth taking, sooner or later you will get distracted or run out of LC (especially in the current market), and there we SLAM again - but at 16ppm FC instead of 31ppm.
 
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I did not find another topic talking about that, otherwise I wouldn’t have started this one
It's definitely come up a few times and probably was buried deep in a thread full of chemistry questions.

There is plenty of stuff throughout pool school that either didn't age well or was fine tuned / tweaked / evolved over the years. It's a never ending battle. Lol.
 
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