Suction Side Leak Confirmed.....But Where....*brickwall*

[Numb]

So, I had another thread in this section, where I recently replaced my pump and redid my whole equipment pad...
https://www.troublefreepool.com/thr...-its-time-for-a-new-pump-blessing-in-disguise

So I have a suction side leak....or two...or more.
My suction setup is basically separate lines coming from the skimmer and main drain to the pad. They come up and go into a 3-way Jandy diverter valve. That then feeds into my VSP. Super basic right? *sigh*

Symptoms:

• Air in pump basket
• Air in return jets in pool
• Water level drop in pump basket when pump off
• Originally more air seemed to come in when the Jandy was on skimmer than main drain but I think I found that to be a leak in my MX-8 hose.

What I have checked:

• Did the hose test....couldn't find anything substantial
• Did a saran wrap test.....oh youtube....I don't know why i trust you so
• Did the listen through a pipe test...nada
• Checked the pump lid oring, lubed.
• Checked drain plug in the intelliflo, lubed.
• Checked union into the pump, lubed
• Replaced a couple of joints I was suspicious of, inserted 2" unions into the mix while doing it to make future repairs easier
• Pulled cap on Jandy neverlube valve and....lubed.....which seems to be an oxymoron.
• I wrapped some packing tape around every suction side connection i could except the jandy and the union into the pump. I honestly don't even know if this would work, it seemed plausible and I was desperate.

Results:

Not sure. It seems like there are less bubbles coming through now but there is obviously still a leak somewhere. I just...can't freaking find it, its eating away at the last little shred of sanity I had.


Also, what is the risk to my pump of running it with this leak? Pump basket never goes empty just always has 1/2-2/3 air in it. But I have not been running it unattended out of fear of damaging my brand new beautiful Intelliflo and my pool is going to need a SLAM before long as a result.


Advice? Anyone?

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:


Afterthought, just for my own peace of mind I realized I could.....create a new test line that would run straight from the pump to each union to the suction lines one at a time. I'd be wasting about 20 bucks in unions but.....at least that way if there are no bubbles from each one independently....bypassing the jandy and the existing stuff....I know the leak(s) is/are in that section that I bypassed. If not...I don't wanna think about it. I guess I will make this my "if all else fails plan". I already have an extra pentair union for the pump connection I'd just have to go pick up a 2" union to take the top from for the other end.

 

[duraleigh]

They are tough to find but should be fixed. Not damaging your pump but REALLY deteriorating your efficiency and costing you money to pump that air.

Pump basket lid is most common.....pour water over it (pump running) to see if you can stop or lessen the airflow. (Do not overtighten pump basket lid....hand snug is good enough)

Did you check your pump basket drain valves? (2 of them) No o-ring missing and some teflon tape on them?

Any O-ring missing from the unions? Are they threaded and coupled straight?

Water in pool high enough so it can't suck air at the skimmer, right?

I love Richard320's saying, " The first thing that breaks is the last thing you fixed!" Go back over your repairs and make sure everything looks straight and orderly.

 

[Numb]

They are tough to find but should be fixed. Not damaging your pump but REALLY deteriorating your efficiency and costing you money to pump that air.

Pump basket lid is most common.....pour water over it (pump running) to see if you can stop or lessen the airflow. (Do not overtighten pump basket lid....hand snug is good enough)

Did you check your pump basket drain valves? (2 of them) No o-ring missing and some teflon tape on them?

Any O-ring missing from the unions? Are they threaded and coupled straight?

Water in pool high enough so it can't suck air at the skimmer, right?

I love Richard320's saying, " The first thing that breaks is the last thing you fixed!" Go back over your repairs and make sure everything looks straight and orderly.

Pump basket lid: Check...this made no difference

Pump basket drain valves: Check...only one on the Intelliflo, there is a second one but it is pressure side. Regardless I have checked them both, o-rings are there, I have not teflon taped them, will go do that.

Unions: Check (actually checked several times)...O-rings are intact. Threaded and coupled straight.

Water level: Check. Plenty of water...occurs when pulling from just the main drain as well.

I'm a bit suspicious of the Jandy valve to be honest, not sure why. Which would be a real bummer since its already hard plumbed in so I obviously cannot return it. We shall see.

 

[Numb]

Well, I went ahead and created the bypass pipes that individually routed the skimmer and main drain suction to the pump individually and tested them one at a time.

Tested the skimmer line first, there were a few lingering bubbles into the pump basket after allowing the pump to run at 2600RPM for 5 minutes but overall about 98% reduced. There was an initial gathering of air at the top of the pump basket lid that was very slowly diminishing over time as this ran. I didn't lube the o-rings on the union at the pump prior to the test, that may have been the culprit.

I removed the skimmer bypass and tested the main drain bypass. There was much less air in the system at this point and the main drain suction was airless almost immediately after priming, not a bubble to be found.

Looks like I'll be rebuilding the suction end of my system again and replacing the 3-way Jandy in the process. Many lessons learned on this one, but I think it will go much better the second time around.

Still don't know exactly where the leak was...but...at this point I'd rather just redo it from known good to known good.

 

[mitchellb]

Jandy valve. Just rebuilt mine for the same issue.

 

[Melnic]

If you think there is a leak in the joint, you can also do the plastic wrap test in addition to a hose test.
I found an air leak (industrial application, not pools) years ago out in the field using plastic wrap (we could not use water where we were at).
I just had to prove it was not our equipment, plumber fixed the leak.
Wrap the joint with plastic wrap and look at the curve of the plastic at the joints. Turn on pump and if there is a leak, it will suck the plastic tight at the joint making sharp angle.

 

[Dirk]

Sounds like you're on the mend. For the future? Sounds like you considered the possibility of two separate leaks. Did you actually test for this? Very hard to troubleshoot when there are two separate faults.

From my scuba days:

It's possible to use too much lube. You're just supposed to "color" the o-rings with it. Almost like putting it on and wiping it all off (almost). You're also checking the o-ring at the same time, because o-ring failures are not always obvious: deformation, nicks, cuts, splits, etc can be hard to spot. The MO I was taught, you grease your thumb and forefinger, then pinch the o-ring with those two fingers, and pull the o-ring through your fingers with your other hand. You're stretching the o-ring, quite a bit, as you're pulling. This applies the lube thinly, and evenly, and helps to reveal any imperfections or defects in the o-ring, which you are actively feeling for as you pull. You go around and around multiple times.

Sorry, I'm going backwards here. You make sure your fingers and hands are very clean. And before that, you inspect and thoroughly clean both contact surfaces, in this case both sides of the union. You're looking for any defects, and you're cleaning out any dirt. I use a no-lint cloth for this, scrunched up tight and jammed into the o-ring channel, round'n'round. It's tempting to use a q-tip, but those can leave behind material.

You never set the o-ring down, it goes right into the channel, right after everything is cleaned and lubed.

It doesn't take much to foul an o-ring. And PVC is molded, not cut like a metal fitting, so they're much more prone to defects during manufacture, which are also hard to spot.