That is a problem with the written word sometimes. No worries, no hard feelings, and good luck with your project. 
startup for ornamental pond
- Thread starter singingpond
- Start date
While in college I worked full time for a landscaping company right outside of Atlanta. I was hired because I'm a hard worker, intelligent, could speak to the customer and had no desire to start my own landscaping company. I ran the "rock crews", we built patios, walls, neighborhood entrances and fire pits. In addition to those features we did small and large garden ponds with waterfalls often incorporated into a long retaining wall using the slope of the yard to create mini rivers flowing into the main pond. I had no formal training and had no time to research the proper way to do things, i did as my boss told me, counting on him to be the expert.
As i began to excel in customer communication i was promoted to the problem solving guy. Interesting enough, I returned to many of the ponds I had built. The main problem customers experienced was that the pond's turned into a nasty mess. They did not live up to the sales pitch. I've drained many a pond, pressure washed all the rocks, sucked out all the nasty water, refilled, blame it on a filter problem and left (following boss's instructions).
After about the 5th one I decided to research pond building. Low and behold it turns out you can'd dig a hole, line it with black rubber, fill it with rocks, add a pump and a "pond filter" and not end up having a nasty looking pond full of wild life, debris, snakes, birds, poop etc. They all looked like a "real pond" in other words.
The two biggest issues your mom's pond is GOING to have are the lack of a bottom drain and the natural rock stacked inside of the pond. There is no convenient way to remove debris from the pond's bottom or sides. Debris will accumulate behind all of the rocks causing a chlorine demand that won't be kept up resulting in a green pond that eventually will have gunk all over the rocks and behind them.
The best way to build these types of ponds is to include a bottom drain (could even be retrofitted with a pipe that doesn't penetrate the lining) and to EXCLUDE the rocks on the interior. In addition to that design element, it's best to build them overly deep. To make them look natural the rocks that lay on the edge of the pond should protrude slightly into the pond to hid the liner material as it emerges from the water line. When you stand and look into a pond that is black liner only with attractive natural stone edge you do not "notice" the "missing rocks". All you notice is the clear water in the "dark hole".
In my opinion the builder mixed up some quickcrete (bagged concrete) dumped it in there, sprinkled some pretty rocks on it, and knows from experience that after a month or two nobody will ever see it which is why he's not doing anything about water chemistry. If this was a sprayed in gunite pond I'd have some concerns, but being it is a liner with concrete in the bottom and natural rock all up the sides, i know what it will turn into.
I'm not sure the cartridge filters are the best option for this situation. I think she'd be better off with oversized pond filters that are not regularly cleaned and are never sanitized. It's really going to be more of a giant fish tank than a pool without some major changes.
As i began to excel in customer communication i was promoted to the problem solving guy. Interesting enough, I returned to many of the ponds I had built. The main problem customers experienced was that the pond's turned into a nasty mess. They did not live up to the sales pitch. I've drained many a pond, pressure washed all the rocks, sucked out all the nasty water, refilled, blame it on a filter problem and left (following boss's instructions).
After about the 5th one I decided to research pond building. Low and behold it turns out you can'd dig a hole, line it with black rubber, fill it with rocks, add a pump and a "pond filter" and not end up having a nasty looking pond full of wild life, debris, snakes, birds, poop etc. They all looked like a "real pond" in other words.
The two biggest issues your mom's pond is GOING to have are the lack of a bottom drain and the natural rock stacked inside of the pond. There is no convenient way to remove debris from the pond's bottom or sides. Debris will accumulate behind all of the rocks causing a chlorine demand that won't be kept up resulting in a green pond that eventually will have gunk all over the rocks and behind them.
The best way to build these types of ponds is to include a bottom drain (could even be retrofitted with a pipe that doesn't penetrate the lining) and to EXCLUDE the rocks on the interior. In addition to that design element, it's best to build them overly deep. To make them look natural the rocks that lay on the edge of the pond should protrude slightly into the pond to hid the liner material as it emerges from the water line. When you stand and look into a pond that is black liner only with attractive natural stone edge you do not "notice" the "missing rocks". All you notice is the clear water in the "dark hole".
In my opinion the builder mixed up some quickcrete (bagged concrete) dumped it in there, sprinkled some pretty rocks on it, and knows from experience that after a month or two nobody will ever see it which is why he's not doing anything about water chemistry. If this was a sprayed in gunite pond I'd have some concerns, but being it is a liner with concrete in the bottom and natural rock all up the sides, i know what it will turn into.
I'm not sure the cartridge filters are the best option for this situation. I think she'd be better off with oversized pond filters that are not regularly cleaned and are never sanitized. It's really going to be more of a giant fish tank than a pool without some major changes.
Hmmm, I guess I will not leave the thread after all... thank you for the thoughtful post! That all makes a lot of sense, and I have been worried all along about the impossibility of brushing in/around all those rocks.
The builder has done a handful of other projects of this type in the area, and my mom actually saw one or two of them before jumping into the project... He claims that his clients, especially their kids, play in the ponds; and the ones my mom saw in person looked fine. However, even if he means well (as he seems to), the problem may be that he is fairly new to building these ponds, and has not seen how they look down the road.
Your cautions all make a lot of sense, unfortunately! Yes, they did used bagged concrete for the underlying base layer (I asked about this yesterday, after making a rough calculation of volume, and the ridiculous number of premix bags this would imply). Then the visible top layer of concrete was done, mixed in the same manner, but with a lighter more sand-like color and with pebbles embedded in it.
I'll keep that main drain idea in the back of my mind in case things go downhill as you fear. And I'll push harder for more chlorine in there now!
edited to add:
Your post makes me realize that I've likely been focusing too much on the short-term concrete-curing issues, when it's the basic construction/design that may make it very difficult or impossible to maintain this body of water to swimming pool standards in the long term
The builder has done a handful of other projects of this type in the area, and my mom actually saw one or two of them before jumping into the project... He claims that his clients, especially their kids, play in the ponds; and the ones my mom saw in person looked fine. However, even if he means well (as he seems to), the problem may be that he is fairly new to building these ponds, and has not seen how they look down the road.
Your cautions all make a lot of sense, unfortunately! Yes, they did used bagged concrete for the underlying base layer (I asked about this yesterday, after making a rough calculation of volume, and the ridiculous number of premix bags this would imply). Then the visible top layer of concrete was done, mixed in the same manner, but with a lighter more sand-like color and with pebbles embedded in it.
I'll keep that main drain idea in the back of my mind in case things go downhill as you fear. And I'll push harder for more chlorine in there now!
edited to add:
Your post makes me realize that I've likely been focusing too much on the short-term concrete-curing issues, when it's the basic construction/design that may make it very difficult or impossible to maintain this body of water to swimming pool standards in the long term
harleysilo, in you opinion, would a main drain still be necessary if the underwater rocks were removed? Wouldn't it then be fairly similar to a shallow inground pool, many of which do without a main drain?
I guess I am trying to gather options to present to my parents, if the project ends up going downhill from a sanitation point of view. I could print out your post above, and show it to them, but that seems an unwarranted bash to my mom's cheerful enjoyment of the project at the moment...
I guess I am trying to gather options to present to my parents, if the project ends up going downhill from a sanitation point of view. I could print out your post above, and show it to them, but that seems an unwarranted bash to my mom's cheerful enjoyment of the project at the moment...
It is certainly a fine line to walk with your mom, one i'm walking with my in laws right now who bought a new home and we are going to see it this weekend. Guess what, it has 2 ornamental pond's that according to my father in law look like a circle of rocks thrown on the ground around a green hole. I imagine I will advise him to have them removed as they most likely don't look good and aren't "fixable".
Removing the underwater rocks would certainly help, but in an untreated shallow pond would not in and of itself prevent the eventual turn to green algae filled water. Removing them would make leaf/debris removal much much easier with a just a net you can scoop them out with. But I think you would still need to vacuum occasionally. The sell portable pond vacuums according to google, I've never used one. I've also seen people post about vacuums they make themselves that run off of a garden hose, i will search and see if i can find a good link to the homemade ones.
The key to keeping it nice and clear and treated like a pool is going to be preventing that filter from getting clogged up and slowing filtration. You can still keep algae at bay without filtration or even a pump, as i did for a month in my pool when the pump burned out this summer. But she will loose water clarity without filtration. So it's going to be key to get out the debris as it accumulates.
The main drain can make the pond so much easier to maintain because you can "push" debris to it, and the pump basket will catch it. So instead of cleaning out leaves from bottom of pond you clean them out from the pump basket. Much like a skimmer catches the floating stuff. It could be retrofitted, but you's want the bottom to slope somewhat to it. In this case with the bottom poured, you could install the drain, and then add a few more inches of concrete to the bottom of pool to cause it to slope to the new drain opening. I'm not sure if the fish people put a protective cover over the drain which would protect fish but also keep leaves/devris from going into the drain.
Here's a good link on bottom drains
Pond Bottom Drains | How Install | Best Pond Filtration
Cheap vacuum system without pump for above ground pools - YouTube
Removing the underwater rocks would certainly help, but in an untreated shallow pond would not in and of itself prevent the eventual turn to green algae filled water. Removing them would make leaf/debris removal much much easier with a just a net you can scoop them out with. But I think you would still need to vacuum occasionally. The sell portable pond vacuums according to google, I've never used one. I've also seen people post about vacuums they make themselves that run off of a garden hose, i will search and see if i can find a good link to the homemade ones.
The key to keeping it nice and clear and treated like a pool is going to be preventing that filter from getting clogged up and slowing filtration. You can still keep algae at bay without filtration or even a pump, as i did for a month in my pool when the pump burned out this summer. But she will loose water clarity without filtration. So it's going to be key to get out the debris as it accumulates.
The main drain can make the pond so much easier to maintain because you can "push" debris to it, and the pump basket will catch it. So instead of cleaning out leaves from bottom of pond you clean them out from the pump basket. Much like a skimmer catches the floating stuff. It could be retrofitted, but you's want the bottom to slope somewhat to it. In this case with the bottom poured, you could install the drain, and then add a few more inches of concrete to the bottom of pool to cause it to slope to the new drain opening. I'm not sure if the fish people put a protective cover over the drain which would protect fish but also keep leaves/devris from going into the drain.
Here's a good link on bottom drains
Pond Bottom Drains | How Install | Best Pond Filtration
Cheap vacuum system without pump for above ground pools - YouTube
We were planning to vacuum the pond as needed, and it does have a fairly standard skimmer (actually 2 of them) so I expected to hook up a pool vacuum hose there. It has a standard (3-speed) pool pump, which looks more than competent to move the 5000 gallons of water. Also, the intention all along has been to chlorinate it and maintain chemistry much like in a pool. It is not near any trees, so hopefully leaf load will be low.
However, there will certainly be some grass clippings, and 'presents' from the many birds who are already visiting their new watering and bathing site. Also, I've been worried from the beginning about brushing (and vacuuming) among all those underwater boulders. As you described, it seems that lots of material could build up in those cracks and crannies and become inaccessible to normal pool cleaning methods. I wonder if there is something akin to a 'crevice tool' for pool vacuums, LOL? Even if there is, there would be an AWFUL lot of little spaces between/under the stones. And this is supposed to be a low maintenance thing for my parents, something pleasant to sit next to on the patio, and look at out of the window; not a major burden.
I will read your links, and will also try to get better informed about management of more 'natural' backyard ponds -- this pond does not really have to be clean enough for swimming to please my mom (she will enjoy the way it looks, the sound of falling water, and the plants she will put around it), but she won't appreciate green and nasty water either.
Thanks again for your comments!
However, there will certainly be some grass clippings, and 'presents' from the many birds who are already visiting their new watering and bathing site. Also, I've been worried from the beginning about brushing (and vacuuming) among all those underwater boulders. As you described, it seems that lots of material could build up in those cracks and crannies and become inaccessible to normal pool cleaning methods. I wonder if there is something akin to a 'crevice tool' for pool vacuums, LOL? Even if there is, there would be an AWFUL lot of little spaces between/under the stones. And this is supposed to be a low maintenance thing for my parents, something pleasant to sit next to on the patio, and look at out of the window; not a major burden.
I will read your links, and will also try to get better informed about management of more 'natural' backyard ponds -- this pond does not really have to be clean enough for swimming to please my mom (she will enjoy the way it looks, the sound of falling water, and the plants she will put around it), but she won't appreciate green and nasty water either.
Thanks again for your comments!
At this point in construction, and given what you just wrote about what type of enjoyment your mom is seeking (low maintenance and natural beauty), I recommend letting it become a "fish pond". She'd get ton's of enjoyment from fish, they will come to the surface to feed and say hi, my kids aquarium fish do that, and the YoYo's click at you. The underwater boulders really will hide and trap a lot of debris, especially over time. The fish will need cover from predator's which can just be some upside down bucket with holes drilled in them painted black with a rock on top set on the bottom. Alternatively plants that cover the surface will help provide the same thing. Some people resort to nets strung over the ponds to prevent the inevitable bird attacks, they also use them during fall to catch leaves. Put fish in the pond, let the skimmers work, consider a different filtering system that is designed to work with debris vs. remove it and she could go year's before it really need to have the fish removed, the water pumped out, and the whole thing hosed down.
Pictures of the project would be nice, and i'm not sure you ever mentioned the dimensions of the pond, specifically the depth. One of the neatest features i saw was a large flat stone "floating"in the middle of a fairly large 8' by 15' pond. It was actually resting on 3 stacks of cinder blocks and you could step onto it from the side and effectively walk across the pond. The cinder blocks were basically invisible due to algae growth on them turning them dark green. I wouldn't recommend using cinder blocks but that is what was done in that instance.
Pictures of the project would be nice, and i'm not sure you ever mentioned the dimensions of the pond, specifically the depth. One of the neatest features i saw was a large flat stone "floating"in the middle of a fairly large 8' by 15' pond. It was actually resting on 3 stacks of cinder blocks and you could step onto it from the side and effectively walk across the pond. The cinder blocks were basically invisible due to algae growth on them turning them dark green. I wouldn't recommend using cinder blocks but that is what was done in that instance.
I will measure, and also try to post some pictures (have to take some on my next visit).
As for approximate size, it is roughly 20' in the longer dimension, somewhat oval, so smaller the other way across. I gather, from the builder's comments, that this is pretty good size for one of these ponds. Depth is about 20" at the deepest (partly because of HOA regulations, which limit the depth of the water). Is that too shallow to keep fish, in a New England climate?
As for approximate size, it is roughly 20' in the longer dimension, somewhat oval, so smaller the other way across. I gather, from the builder's comments, that this is pretty good size for one of these ponds. Depth is about 20" at the deepest (partly because of HOA regulations, which limit the depth of the water). Is that too shallow to keep fish, in a New England climate?
If I dare ask another chemistry question -- even if we give up on any worries about the curing of the concrete, which seems the sensible thing to do at this point, I think we still have to address the pH issue somewhat. If nothing else, chlorine will work better at lower pH, if I recall correctly. If my mom decides to let the pond go more to a 'natural' state, and eventually puts fish in there, that certainly won't be until next year. In the meantime, we should try to keep it from turning green. How long does pH typically keep rising with new concrete? And I assume that the waterfall, when turned on, will further tend to push the pH upward. The system, as designed, doesn't allow any circulation without using the waterfall (that is the only return point).
The builder seems fairly ignorant of these issues (e.g. he put in a single dose of acid a few days ago and told my mom that that should take care of it for the rest of the season; also he did his water testing with test strips), so I think we are pretty much on our own.
Maybe time to get familiar with using muriatic acid (something we've never needed with our pool at home)? Or should we just ignore pH entirely??
The builder seems fairly ignorant of these issues (e.g. he put in a single dose of acid a few days ago and told my mom that that should take care of it for the rest of the season; also he did his water testing with test strips), so I think we are pretty much on our own.
Maybe time to get familiar with using muriatic acid (something we've never needed with our pool at home)? Or should we just ignore pH entirely??
Rising pH will be a constant battle. Aeration causes dissolved carbon dioxide (carbonic acid) to outgas from the water in attempts to form an equilibrium with the carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere. The total alkalinity level of the water will be the primary driver of how quickly the pH will rise and how high it will go.
Plaster curing produces calcium hydroxide which will also contribute to pH rise. From your descriptions above, I'm unsure of the product that was used by your pool builder but as long as it is a cementious material, water balance will be paramount in promoting longevity of the surface.
The calcite saturation index is the best indication of how aggressive/oversaturated the water is with regards to calcium carbonate - needed to prevent the water from leaching calcium from the plaster surface but conversely too much will lead it precipitating out of solution and causing scale on the surface.
There are several great write-ups on this site that (one of which was linked above) that outline startup, care and maintenance for plaster surfaces to promote longevity. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask away.
Plaster curing produces calcium hydroxide which will also contribute to pH rise. From your descriptions above, I'm unsure of the product that was used by your pool builder but as long as it is a cementious material, water balance will be paramount in promoting longevity of the surface.
The calcite saturation index is the best indication of how aggressive/oversaturated the water is with regards to calcium carbonate - needed to prevent the water from leaching calcium from the plaster surface but conversely too much will lead it precipitating out of solution and causing scale on the surface.
There are several great write-ups on this site that (one of which was linked above) that outline startup, care and maintenance for plaster surfaces to promote longevity. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask away.
I cleaned out the ornamental pool from my neighbor's yard (he moved to Maine and the property is now a rental; I take care of it) and discovered how incredibly invasive and tenacious cattails can be. If they survive up there and if so there are any close enough for the seeds (fluff) to carry there, be diligent in removing them. Once established they are remarkably difficult to remove.
In regards to your questioning about pH and chlorine effectiveness, so long as you are using CYA (which you should be), the effectiveness of chlorine(actually hypochlorous acid) is negligible at typical pH levels that are required to be maintained(between 7.2-7.8). CYA significantly buffers and holds chlorine in reserve (while shielding it from degradation from UV rays). If you'd like to read further on this I can link you to a thread that outlines this topic in detail with plenty of scientific data to back the claim.
Very interesting... Cattails definitely grow here. Another thing to look out for!
Thanks. I suppose my interest is more academic at this point, since it doesn't look like I will be able to do anything about the water parameters any time soon. And the excellent article about plaster startup doesn't exactly help, since we are already several weeks into not following the instructions in the article, LOL. At this point it's more a question of what happens next.
I am curious about the concept of CSI. PoolMath showed quite a high CSI number, even though CH measured fairly low at just 70. TA was 60, CYA and chlorine both zero. However, with pH probably above 9, the CSI gets high. What does this mean in practice? Is there a risk of scaling; if so, how does that actually work, when CH is lowish? These numbers are from a couple days ago, measured with K-2006.
I'm going to look at PoolMath again, in case I goofed when entering the measured values.
P.S. I have tried searching the site for what happens with low CH and high pH, but no luck thus far.
I'm fairly familiar with the proper chlorine/CYA relationship and the general function of CYA. And, if I understand what you're saying (?) the effectiveness of chlorine doesn't change all that much over the typical pH range of 7.2 - 7.8?
However, at significantly higher pH (say 9.0) I thought I remembered reading (probably one of chem geek's posts) that chlorine becomes less effective. Isn't that why we bring pH down to 7.2 before a SLAM?
If we just put chlorine in without lowering pH, will that chlorine be less effective in keeping algae and pathogens at bay?
CH has relatively little to do with CSI. You can absolutely have scale and you are very much within that range with your current numbers.
CSI is a logarithmic scale the takes pH, TA, CH, salt, CYA and water temperature into account. pH has the greatest influence, then TA and temp in that order. Mess around with some theoretical numbers in pool math and see how the end result is effected.
The issue other than scale with pH levels over 8 is if there are metals in the water, they too will precipitate out and cause staining. Scale is almost eminent above 8.2 anyway (also the limit of most test kits) so that's why maintaining proper levels is so paramount.
CSI is a logarithmic scale the takes pH, TA, CH, salt, CYA and water temperature into account. pH has the greatest influence, then TA and temp in that order. Mess around with some theoretical numbers in pool math and see how the end result is effected.
The issue other than scale with pH levels over 8 is if there are metals in the water, they too will precipitate out and cause staining. Scale is almost eminent above 8.2 anyway (also the limit of most test kits) so that's why maintaining proper levels is so paramount.
With CYA in the water, not really but your pH should never be allowed to go that high to begin with.
PH is brought down during a slam because the pH test will read false high at chlorine levels above 10. Lowering the pH to 7.2 will hopefully buy enough time to complete the SLAM before the pH rises close to 8.
Well, aside from chemistry, this is turning into more of a social drama than I expected. As harleysilo noted, it's a fine line to walk (when dealing with family members).
So I will take a step back from the situation. If it goes green, it goes green; it's not a situation worth any family hassles!
So I will take a step back from the situation. If it goes green, it goes green; it's not a situation worth any family hassles!
Thanks for further explanation. The dust I was brushing up from the concrete was slightly reddish, whereas the concrete itself was more of an off white. I wonder if that could be from iron (very common in CT water supplies). Another factor to keep an eye on. - thanks!
I wouldn't be surprised. Good luck with the pond and hashing out the issues with the builder.