Speakers! Help!

[gatorwayne]

DECK is 36 x 36. I forgot to include that on the drawing. Picasso I am not

I need to get prepped to put down the conduit for the pool speakers. Our house faces south and the pool is in the backyard. I initially planned on putting two speakers under the eaves (1,2) and two rocks on the north side of the deck (5,6). I’m now considering adding two rock speakers on the east side (4,7) and two rock speakers on the west side (3,8). I have never wired speakers in series or parallel. I understand parallel 1/2s the impedance and series doubles it. I’m pretty certain I can figure out the wiring to wire a set in parallel, the other set in parallel, and then in series to join the two sets. This should result in 8 ohms impedance. Odd speakers to left channel and even speakers to right channel. Is that correct?

1. I called outdoorspeakerdepot today to ask about this setup and the salesperson sounded clueless. HE backed it up by telling you can only connect one set of speakers to a volume control. Odd how they sell VCs that can control 8 speakers. Would it be better to wire left and right channels to one volume control or two separate controls?

2. I want the volume control(s) on the covered patio. I’m thinking two controls, one per channel. Any chance I can get away with just one?

3. I’m going to drive the system with an Onkyo 7.1 receiver, HT-R530. I will never need to really turn this up. A county sheriff lives behind me. I really do not need him coming over to tell me to turn it down. The receiver is rated at 110 watts per channel. Is this enough to power 4 speakers per channel?

4. Anything else I should consider?
Thanks!

 

[4knights]

I can't answer the technical questions as other posters will be along soon.
I can tell you from experience that a single receiver without an amp won't provide the sound your looking for unless you're spending huge money on a professional receiver. Is there a specific reason you want that many speakers? Looking for total surround for movies?
My backyard is 200x 200 and I only have 5 speakers plus a subwoofer.
I originally had two rock speakers from OSD but replaced them with a pair of Bose Free space 51's http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho ... /index.jsp
A pair of Polk audio directionals mounted in my trees, one center channel infinity and the subwoofer under the deck for outdoor movies.
The Bose are omnidirectional and have the best sound I have ever heard. Extremely crisp highs, mid and low range sound in all parts of the yard. Volume never has to be too loud and everyone can hear the music without shouting over it. My set up has the Bose on channel A, the Polks on channel B the infinity on center along with the subwoofer. I am adding another set of Bose 51s this spring to take the Polk speakers spot on channel B then the Polks will be the rear speakers for the movies.
If you want individual volume controls then your controller needs to be matched to your receiver power/ohms plus the speakers need to be the same ohm rating.
Rock speakers send the sound up and out, the omnidirectionals provide 360 degree sound at ground level moving out and slightly up.
In your drawing you could simply put a pair of Bose in opposite sides and add directionals on the cover patio eve to cover your entire space.

 

[gatorwayne]

I can't answer the technical questions as other posters will be along soon.
I can tell you from experience that a single receiver without an amp won't provide the sound your looking for unless you're spending huge money on a professional receiver. Is there a specific reason you want that many speakers? Looking for total surround for movies?

I went from having 4, two on the house and two on the opposite side of the pool, to eight with two speakers each on the empty sides because OSD rock speakers are fairly cheap ($120 to add 4 speakers), they will be amongst the landscaping and for the most part out of sight, and volume can be somewhat constant across the backyard. It is not to get loud but to actually avoid getting loud by having speakers on the peripheral that point to the interior and provide a decent level of sound without an area being too loud. My yard is fenced with a 6 ft fence. Between the deck and fence is 3' on west side, 5' on north side, and 10' on east side. West and north of the deck will be rocked and landscaped.

In your drawing you could simply put a pair of Bose in opposite sides and add directionals on the cover patio eve to cover your entire space.

I have heard those Bose and I liked the sound of them but at alomst $500 after tax, they are not in this design. two years from now, maybe. I have considered TICs and OSDs omni directional speakers. I want to keep the sound down but covering the area. I don't want to be that asshat neighbor (two houses down from me) that has a Crud radio turned up too loud and thinks everyone wants to hear their 90s hit mix CD.

 

[4knights]

You can get the Bose free space 51's new on Amazon for as low as $395 a pair or check Craigslist in your area. I got a used pair for $150.
OSD sells omnidirectionals for a lower price with good warranty, don't know how they sound but you could return them if you didn't like their output. If you go that route, just get one pair and put them opposite corners. You wil be amazed at the coverage you get.
Another possibility to help make your decision would be to go to any local zoo, amusement park or outdoor mall and ask management what they use. You may be able to get a pair real cheap as they replace them quite often.

Lastly, I would suggest you contact a local home entertainment center dealer/installer for a free estimate. They will come out look over your area and make recommendations. If you ask for an itemized list to help make your decision you'll know what the pros would do. Then you can design your base system and add to it as you can.

 

[X-PertPool]

I use the same receiver in my home theater system. I like it, I have it with the 7 speakers and the one subwoofer hooked up. Never really had a problem with it not being powerful enough.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Your receiver appears to have discrete amps for Front, Surround, Surround Back, and possibly Center. An easy way to setup your system that won't drive the amp nuts and won't overwhelm you with wiring is to do it so that the pair under the eaves is your "front" pair, the pair at the back away from the eaves is your "Surround Back" set. Then treat each side pair of speakers as a single channel and wire these in series and connect to the "Surround" channel. This allows you to keep the load the same across all of the channels and keeps volume around the same also (the total volume of a pair of series wired speakers should be similar to the volume of a single non-series wired speaker).

I have attached a picture of the basic series wiring for you.[attachment=0:3oqciw97]Speakers series.jpg[/attachment:3oqciw97]

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

These also may be helpful diagrams. One shows the left side connections and the other shows the right side.[attachment=1:3r74nzn3]Pool Speakers Left.jpg[/attachment:3r74nzn3][attachment=0:3r74nzn3]Pool Speakers Right.jpg[/attachment:3r74nzn3]

 

[gatorwayne]

UnderWaterVanya,

Thanks for the wiring suggestions and diagrams. I think I am going to keep it simple like you diagrammed instead of trying to figure out a series / parallel wiring circuit and then wire speakers around the 40 x 40 deck.

It's really just music for around the pool. I really need to stop overthinking the layout and keep it simple.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

UnderWaterVanya,

Thanks for the wiring suggestions and diagrams. I think I am going to keep it simple like you diagrammed instead of trying to figure out a series / parallel wiring circuit and then wire speakers around the 40 x 40 deck.

It's really just music for around the pool. I really need to stop overthinking the layout and keep it simple.

If you didn't have a Home Theater system at the heart of this and you were using a simple two channel system it would be harder to maintain the loads but with 3+ amps the options are a lot easier even if the amps are likely simple IC's.

This also assumes that the "rock" type speakers are really more full range and less extended range and as such the surround signal makes the most sense for them. If your system is like most it will simulate surround sound with music. If that drives you nuts you can always change things to a different setup using something else at the heart of the system or rewire.

 

[ComputerGuyInNOLA]

You should separate your sound stage along the dotted line in your image. When you are facing the house speakers 5,4,7, and 2 would be your left channel and speakers 1,8,3, and 6 would be your right channel. First, get high efficiency speakers that produce at least 100 db of sound pressure at 1 watt at 1 meter. Make sure they are 8 ohm speakers. Get a multi channel speaker switch that will present an 8 ohm load to the receiver to reduce the risk of overheating. Wire the main left and right channel of the receiver to the speaker switch inputs and then connect the speakers as outlined above to the switch on the output side. Also make sure you use at least 14 gauge wire for the longer runs. The longer the run the more important it is because the impedance presented to the amp drops with every foot of speaker cable depending on the gauge of the wire. See the following link for an impedance matching speaker switch. Good luck!

http://www.amazon.com/Speaker-Selector- ... B004C6O86A

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

You should separate your sound stage along the dotted line in your image. When you are facing the house speakers 5,4,7, and 2 would be your left channel and speakers 1,8,3, and 6 would be your right channel. First, get high efficiency speakers that produce at least 100 db of sound pressure at 1 watt at 1 meter. Make sure they are 8 ohm speakers. Get a multi channel speaker switch that will present an 8 ohm load to the receiver to reduce the risk of overheating. Wire the main left and right channel of the receiver to the speaker switch inputs and then connect the speakers as outlined above to the switch on the output side. Also make sure you use at least 14 gauge wire for the longer runs. The longer the run the more important it is because the impedance presented to the amp drops with every foot of speaker cable depending on the gauge of the wire. See the following link for an impedance matching speaker switch. Good luck!

http://www.amazon.com/Speaker-Selector- ... B004C6O86A

The device in this case has multiple discrete amps designed for being independently driven. Why would he need to worry over simple 8 ohm loads? Outdoors he has already indicated he will be keeping volumes low due to a proximity to law enforcement, so 100dB efficiency is hardly needed. Lastly, he had indicated a desire to use the equipment he has, if money were no object he could buy 70v equipment designed for long runs and dedicated amps for each speaker!

BTW gauge really depends on the distance involved. I think some low voltage direct burial cables put in the ground might be best, but what makes sense in this case is for the original poster to find the cheapest wire with the largest gauge copper (not ccw) that he can afford. Given the fixed location of the speakers solid core writes may be the best bang for the buck.

This article is really helpful and includes a chart on distance vs speaker impedance. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


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[aeromorris05]

Unless your yard is the size Texas or you simply like rock concert type volume levels I think you might be overthinking things. I have a 36'x18' pool arranged side-to-side as viewed from back steps of the house. To one side of the pool there's a 12'x16' covered pavilion. I purchased a 10yr old ebay Onkyo 6.1 receiver w/ ~90w/channel and placed it on a shelf, high under the pavilion where it would be protected from the elements. The receiver drives a single pair of Polk Atrium 4 speakers (~$100) located under the eaves of the pavillion directed toward the pool. They're rated at 89dB which basically means with 1Watt of power they'll generate 89dB of sound measured 1m away. Industry average is about 91dB which isn't an audible difference. Klipsch horn speakers are significantly higher. Double the power from 1watt to 2 watts and the dB's go up by 3 to 92dB. Double the power again to 4watts and the new sound level is 95dB. It takes a ~6dB rise for human hearing to perceive a doubling of volume. 95dB is pretty freaking loud! These 2 speakers have more than enough capability to fill my back yard 95'Wide x 60'Deep with quality sound. In fact it's so much sound that I never get that far on the volume dial because I don't want to rile the neighbors. The bass is solid for music but if you're looking for something that pounds you're going to upset the neighbors and you're going to need a subwoofer. It's difficult to generate bass outside b/c there's nothing to contain it and it travels really far distances.

With the sound primarily coming from the pavilion, I have contemplated mounting another pair of speakers on the rear of the house to balance the sound across the yard. Essentially I'd have an L-shaped sound field. If I were to do that I would install them such that all of the L's were on the house and all of the R's were on the pavillion while using a mix of front and one side channel. With a 7.1 setup like yours I'd probably do something similar. Just make sure to run your receiver in multichannel stereo or whatever Onkyo calls the mode that has all channels play the same fullrange signal as the front L/R.

With respect to speaker brands. I'm pleased with the value/performance I've received from the Atriums. And they were really easy to mount. If I had a bit more coin I may have gone up the line to the Atrium 5 or 6's. I helped a neighbor install some Boston Acoustics on their deck a few years ago and they were very nice but I couldn't justify $400 outdoor speakers when we'll mostly be listing to music from a radio or iPod. JBL & Yamaha also have some decent sounding affordable speakers. I'm not adverse to paying for good speakers as I have Monitor Audio in our home theater but it's hard to justify the outlay when the sound is going up against the neighbors lawnmower, cars passing by and the normal background noise of subdivision living.


Now for the following paragraph I'm going to climb up on a bit of a soapbox so please bear with me. Bose purchasers please stop reading now as the following diatribe will only serve to frustrate you and that's not my intention. Gatorwayne, please do not buy Bose. For the sake of your wallet, please don't do it. I respect everyone's personal opinion regarding sound quality but Bose is to speakers as ozone generators are to swimming pools; overpriced and not as advertized. I don't think Bose has ever produced a speaker that reproduced the sound as it was recorded. Bose EQ's their speakers to have the "Bose Sound." Additionally their drivers are of the cheapest Chinese construction. Usually paper and not the resin impregnated good kind. Their indoor cube speakers roll off around 140Hz or higher and their base modules don't play below 60Hz. All that techno mumbo jumbo just means there's holes in the sound field. There are parts of songs/movies you simply never hear. Yet they persist b/c their advertising budget dwarfs the competition and women in particular like the small form factor. A bose cube is never gonna beat a 4, 5, or 6" midbass woofer/tweeter combo speaker. It's a physics thing. Case in point, the Bose Free Space 51 has a single(?) 4.5" driver yet it claims that it's a fullrange speaker. :?:

-Jeremy

 

[ComputerGuyInNOLA]

The reason for high efficiency speakers is to get a decent volume level without taxing the amplifier. The speaker box I provided a link to is indeed an active switch but it is in the same price range as a Russound passive switch. The point being that it is better to have a switch to protect the amplifier. If you are having a party and start cranking up the volume you don't want your amp going into protection mode and shutting down or causing damage to the amplifier.. BTW, 70v systems are used primarily for PA systems, not high fidelity audio. And to the point of speaker wire, you want the least resistance going to the speaker. Especially on the longer runs. The less the resistance, the less work the amplifier must do. It will run cooler with higher gauge wire. It is also pointless to wire the system as surround sound since Music is not recorded in surround sound. It is in two channels. He could run a simulated surround but the back side of the pool with the rear channel is going to sound strange compared to being close to the main front channel. All he needs is to run two channel stereo on multiple speakers. You can also find cheaper speaker switches but the quality is usually lacking. Look at the following post.

http://www.mediacollege.com/forum/showt ... e-speakers

Actually, I just looked at the first speaker selector I provided a link for and it is not an active switch and provides no power. The power listing is the rated power the switch can handle. You will also get the convenience of having a volume control for each pair of speakers. The other great thing about the switch is the ability to turn speakers on and off to suit your needs. I would also like to note that finding speakers that efficient will be difficult. Try to get as high efficiency as possible.

 

[gatorwayne]

Thanks to everyone that posted. I appreciate everyone’s input. I have ordered 3 sets of RX540 rock speakers and one set of AP520 patio speakers from outdoorspeakerdepot. I bought, cut, and ran fishing line through ½” PVC pipe as well so it is ready once the pool is done and I can get out there and dig a shallow trench to put it in. I did a little math in an attempt to place the speakers equal distant apart. As it turns out putting the speakers about 11’ from each corner puts them about 15’ apart from each other. I am alternating left and right channel so no matter where you are on the deck (or nearly the entire backyard) you are hearing both channels. I also do not plan to have a loud system even though it is 8 speakers. I want an even sound field across the deck. I have all the parts on order and once they get here I am going to lay them out in square like they will be placed around the deck, wire them in a series / parallel circuit to a single volume control. If this sounds acceptable, that is how they will be wired on the deck. If they do not sound good then I will wire them up using the surround channels on the amp. My brain is giving me a very vague memory that one of the surround channels does not work. I have some old 16 gauge wiring I’m going to use for the test. I have some 14 gauge coming with the speakers but I was fooled by Amazon reviews into thinking it was copper wire and not CCA. It is going back. 14 gauge will be used. I hope to order it tonight.

 

[gatorwayne]

Now for the following paragraph I'm going to climb up on a bit of a soapbox so please bear with me. Bose purchasers please stop reading now as the following diatribe will only serve to frustrate you and that's not my intention. Gatorwayne, please do not buy Bose.

-Jeremy

I always say Bose slogan should be better sound through marketing. I almost bought some 901s 23 years ago. I am definitely not a Bose fan. I did hear there omni directional speakers last year and thought they sounded good. We were just starting to kick around the pool idea. Then the guy told me it was $500 and I giggled and left. They sounded good but not OMG! I want that now good!!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

If you are using only two channels you will need to do some series hookups. With 8 speakers if you run two sets of series connected speakers in tandem you can make this work as far as load. This is a lot simpler than having to run the multiple channels on the amp and easier to replace the amp in the future should that be needed. You can either set this up like this:

(2) 16 ohm loads parallel to give an 8 ohm load per channel.
Speaker A - series wired to - Speaker B
Speaker C - series wired to - Speaker D
Both pairs of these connected in parallel to the same channel of the amp.

(1) 24 ohm load + (1) 8 ohm load to give a 6 ohm load per channel.
Speaker A - series wired to - Speaker B - series wired to Speaker C
Speaker D
Both the series set and Speaker D connected to the same channel of the amp.

The only reason for option 2 is if the speakers that are under the eaves are the best sounding and you want the others for more fill in and want more sound output from those under the eaves - this provides that type of setup. It also might help if somehow the impedences of the speakers didn't match well. However it does tax the amp more - which may not be an issue if the volume knob is going to stay low.

As to the comments by an earlier poster about 70v - the "Rock" speakers in use here are evidence that "high fidelity" isn't the main goal - pleasant listening without killing the budget and use of what is already acquired were goals as far as I could tell. Also 70v speakers that are fantastic sounding are available but the choices are more limited than you get with traditional speakers unless you are willing to spend more money.

Hereis a rock speaker designed for both 8ohm and 70v use. Note that with 70v you can use MUCH smaller wire for longer distances since you are transforming voltage for amps using a transformer. However that does beg the question - is 70v safe for use around a pool?

 

[gatorwayne]

I really want the sound to be level across the pool and deck. This is why we are going with 8 speakers. I don’t want to increase the volume on the speakers on one side of the area in order for people on the other side to hear it. With 8 speakers spaced about 15’ apart and alternating left and right channel I should accomplish this. My longest speaker wire runs are about 50’ when I have to go around a corner. I was going to make some speaker cable from cat5 Ethernet cable. I found a box of cat5 cable my neighbor was throwing away. I don’t think it is enough cable so I’m going to use 16 gauge lamp wire.

I received a pair of the rock speakers today. I love the way they look and sound. The real test comes next week when I have all the components of the system and I can hook it up.

 

[X-PertPool]

Are you over thinking this? How could the sound be level across the entire deck? you can possibly create a sweet spot in the center of the pool by using the receiver's ability to adjust the decibels for each speaker. Regardless if you are truly are trying to get the sound as level as possible no matter where you are standing you'll have to hook it up and tweak it since the natural surroundings of the pool area will jack up the acoustics anyways. Also I think you should hook up the aux speaker outputs to some underwater speakers!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

The cat 5 stuff is not a good idea with these long runs. These cables end up being high capacitance and long runs make this worse.

@50' 16ga is not really big enough but so much better than the cat 5!

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[gatorwayne]

Are you over thinking this? How could the sound be level across the entire deck? you can possibly create a sweet spot in the center of the pool by using the receiver's ability to adjust the decibels for each speaker. Regardless if you are truly are trying to get the sound as level as possible no matter where you are standing you'll have to hook it up and tweak it since the natural surroundings of the pool area will jack up the acoustics anyways. Also I think you should hook up the aux speaker outputs to some underwater speakers!

I like the idea of underwater speakers. The pool is surrounded by a 6' fence. 8 speakers surrounding the area will help create a more even sound field than having some on just two sides. The music is really for the background anyways. With cars, dogs, lawnmowers, etc I'm not trying to create an outdoor theater.