Spa water level leaking back to pool over night, when pump off!

[Poolquestion22]

Our pool is over 30 years old. We have noticed recently that spa water level has dropped down to about the water level of the pool over night when pump is off. We have a "never Lube' Jandy diverter valve, 3-way. Have opened the diverter valve and inspected. Check valve and O-rings were ok, no defect seen. Re-lubed all O-rings, plus the surface of check valve with spa&pool silicon lube, plus also greased the check valve from external thru grease port. Carefully reassembled everything afterward, yet the spa level still drops after several hours to the pool level. Thinking about replacing with new O-rings, and check valve, but would like to check with you all since the problems could be elsewhere (because old O-rings and check valve looked great). That was in-flo (suction side), is there connection between pool and spa on the out-flo side? Many thanks in advance.

 

[ajw22]

That was in-flo (suction side), is there connection between pool and spa on the out-flo side?

Suction side pulls water out of the pool from the pool skimmer or spa drains.

Return side flows water into the pool through returns or spa through jets.

Water leakdown in the spa can come from either. More often from the spa return to the pool return.

 

[Poolquestion22]

ajw22 said: <<Suction side pulls water out of the pool from the pool skimmer or spa drains.>>

My pool set up is different. The suction port for spa was closed at the diverter valve prior to the pump. Thus only out-flo to the spa which waterfalls into the pool, and all the jets in the spa were diverted into air jet for spa when we are using them. So, there is no water return from spa as we understand it, not 100% sure, but could not figure out where the suction flo from the spa would be. The returns to pump, as we could see it, are mainly from the skimmers as in this picture. Please note the "off" position of diverter valve off the spa suction. I did inspect and re-service this valve here with lube with no result. May have to change to a new one!


<<Water leakdown in the spa can come from either.>>
So, does that means we may have to service or change all 3 valves from the out-flo side to pin-point the leak (see pic 3 black valves from the left of filter, out-flo side)? Thank you.

 

[ajw22]

The returns to pump, as we could see it, are mainly from the skimmers as in this picture.

You are talking HVAC speak. In pool speak suction goes into the pump, returns go into the pool and spa.

 

[ajw22]

ajw22 said: <<Suction side pulls water out of the pool from the pool skimmer or spa drains.>>

My pool set up is different.

Your pool setup is a standard pool/spa with diverters.

The suction port for spa was closed at the diverter valve prior to the pump.

Are you talking about blue valve 4?

Thus only out-flo to the spa which waterfalls into the pool, and all the jets in the spa were diverted into air jet for spa when we are using them.

Out-flo (return) to the spa goes through red valve 1 through the pipe labeled SPA.So, there is no water return from spa as we understand it, not 100% sure,

So, there is no water return from spa as we understand it, not 100% sure, but could not figure out where the suction flo from the spa would be.

Water return to the SPA is through red pipe labeled SPA.

Suction from the spa is through blue pipe labeled SPA.

The returns to pump, as we could see it, are mainly from the skimmers as in this picture.

Suction goes to the pump in blue. SPA suction is from blue SPA pipe.

So, does that means we may have to service or change all 3 valves from the out-flo side to pin-point the leak (see pic 3 black valves from the left of filter, out-flo side)? Thank you.

3 black valves are the return side which is here the spa leakdown to the pool often occurs.

 

[Poolquestion22]

Thank you ajw22 for taking your time, very good and helpful schematic pictures.
As in your schematic pic of "returns" side (my water heater was cut off and re-rout here), particularly valve #1, the lever is at "off" position to your red labeled "spa" position; . Does this seem to indicate that no flow to my spa from pump?


ajw22 asked: <<Are you talking about blue valve 4?>>
Yes. At blue valve #4, suction line was off to the spa. So water flows back to the pump thru the skimmers only. In my spa, there is a central floor out-flo of water to spa and multiple port-side jets for air. Water then cascades back to pool thru a waterfall steps.
Thus, you are saying that the leak, from spa to pool, could occur at valve #1 and #4. I have serviced valve #4, but not the #1 yet. This would narrow down my search. And what does "CV", as in RED Returns label, stands for please? If it were "Check Valve", then we do not see any valve there!
Could leak occur at the main manifold valve, yellow marking, where we can do backwash and such?

Thank you very much. Learn about pool is fun.

 

[ajw22]

Thus, you are saying that the leak, from spa to pool, could occur at valve #1 and #4.

Yes

I have serviced valve #4, but not the #1 yet.

#1 can be leaking

And what does "CV", as in RED Returns label, stands for please? If it were "Check Valve", then we do not see any valve there!

CV = Check Valve

There should be a check valve mechanism in that 90 where the end unscrews.

Check valves are put in the spa return line to prevent backflow to the pool.

Could leak occur at the main manifold valve, yellow marking, where we can do backwash and such?
View attachment 489623

The yellow marked valve is your Multi-Purpose Valve (MPV). That is not your problem. It does not give an interconnection flow path between the pool and spa.

 

[Poolquestion22]

Thank you ajw22.
It is weird that the #1 valve is off to the conduit labeled SPA as in your schematic. Could it be that valve #2 to SPA, and #3 to all jets on the sidewall of the pool to return the water? Then we dont know what the conduit labeled "CV SPA" from your schematic would lead to? TIA.
View attachment 489635

 

[Poolquestion22]

UPDATE: Went ahead and switch out the diverter valve at #4, along with new O-rings, lubed and greased as instructed. Still same problem.
In the mean time, we came up with an idea to connect the floor hole, water out-flo to spa, with a long tube. Thus when the pump is off, water is still equilibrating between higher spa level to lower pool level. However, with this set up water level equilibration will contain by water in the tube, not the spa. It works.
Now, we will try to figure out where-else the water could communicate between spa and pool, beyond the the diverter valve.

you could see the water whirlpool forming at the top of the tube, until the water below that opening. We may have to extend the tube several inches longer, or making it into a fountain spray above spa water level.

Water in the spa is no longer dropping; water level inside the tube is at pool level, way below the spa level. Our remained question is "any damage to the pipes, pool or spa, if we could not figure out the channel of this communication, water equilibrating between spa and pool?

 

[ajw22]

Post pics shopwing the full inside of the spa.

 

[Poolquestion22]

Post pics shopwing the full inside of the spa.

Yes, here they are. The side jets are for air bubbles. Dont know what the 2 perforated disks at bottom for, probably draining the spa, nothing coming out of them when pump is in operation..

 

[ajw22]

Yes, here they are. The side jets are for air bubbles. Dont know what the 2 perforated disks at bottom for, probably draining the spa, nothing coming out of them when pump is in operation..
View attachment 490170View attachment 490171
View attachment 490177

The two perforated discs are your spa suction. The blue SPA labeled pipe.

When using the spa you are supposed to rotate valve 1 and 4 180 degrees to isolate your equipment to the spa only and pull water from the discs through the pump, filter and heater, and out the spa returns.

What does valve 2 connect to?

I have seen spas like yours with a return in the floor of the spa that has water flowing out of it in pool mode to keep the spa refreshed with water spilling over.

If that is valve 2 then that is the water path from the spa back to the pool and you need a check valve on that pipe.

 

[Poolquestion22]

The two perforated discs are your spa suction. The blue SPA labeled pipe.

When using the spa you are supposed to rotate valve 1 and 4 180 degrees to isolate your equipment to the spa only and pull water from the discs through the pump, filter and heater, and out the spa returns.

What does valve 2 connect to?

I have seen spas like yours with a return in the floor of the spa that has water flowing out of it in pool mode to keep the spa refreshed with water spilling over.

If that is valve 2 then that is the water path from the spa back to the pool and you need a check valve on that pipe.

I think you are right. It does make sense to turn Valve#1 and #4 to isolate the pump and heater to serve the spa only.
My thinking is valve #2 is also to SPA. However, it is in open location, water freely moving across. Thus, could it be a problem, since it is already widely open?

 

[ajw22]

Yes, the pipe to valve #2 is the problem and there should be a check valve on that pipe.

 

[Poolquestion22]

Now, I understand what you said before. Valve #1 could be the culprit, it is off position but could leak thus allowing communicating channel between SPA and POOL on the Returns side. Will service valve #1 and will see. Thank you very much.

 

[ajw22]

There is a direct path between valve #2 and #3 for water between the spa and pool to level without going through valve #1.

Anytime the pump is off the two bodies of water will seek a common level through those pipes.

 

[ajw22]

Close valve #2 and your spa will stop draining.

Your spillover will also stop and the spa water will be get stagnant.

But you can close valve #2 when you turn your pump off and open it during the day when the pump is running.

 

[Poolquestion22]

You are right. There is already open channel between #2 and #3.
But, we are ok, no need to turn the valve #2 daily. The tube inserted to extend above spa water level does the trick. SPA water stops dropping afterward, however, the water inside the tube is down to the pool level. Thing just happened few days ago after 30 years. Something must have given up! Now, it is just fun to find the source.

 

[Poolquestion22]

Close valve #2 and your spa will stop draining.

Your spillover will also stop and the spa water will be get stagnant.

But you can close valve #2 when you turn your pump off and open it during the day when the pump is running.

I did confirm what you have suggested. I closed valve #2, and turned on the pump, no water flowed (returned) to SPA from pump.
Keep valve #2 open, turned off the pump. SPA was slowly losing water until I turned #2 off, then water would stay the same. My question is #2 and #3 have been widely open like that for years, why does it become a problem of SPA losing water to POOL now?
There is a spring load Otega valve at the left end of valve #1; green marking. Thank you.

 

[Poolquestion22]

UPDATE: After confirming the correct waterflow. I shut off valve #2, and open valve #1 allowing water to SPA thru jet ports, and relying on Otega valve to stop backflow. And the leak stops! Thank you ajw22!
In the winter, very mild in Texas, should I open #2 partly to have some running water thru those pipes, and live with small leak?
Thanks again.