Spa leaks into pool, need advice

[RichSiegmund]

Hi folks,
I've read some old posts on this issue and don't fully understand my setup.

TLDR - Where are my check valves? Why doesn't water flow from 'spa water feature' immediately to 'pool return'? Should I be opening either/both the black powered valves to inspect/repair?

Problem - Raised spa slowly leaks to jet level, which is still about 2" above pool level, over a period of about 48 hours.

Pool - built in 1999, gunite, austin tx

Please see photos

Questions

1. I don't see any visible check valves except for one that I added myself about 8 years ago. Am I missing something? Might check valves be underground?
2. Given my configuration, why doesn't the spa immediately drain back to the pool level (left side 'spa water feature' seems to have direct path to 'pool return'. But if this was happening I'd expect spa level to reach pool level, because spa water feature is at bottom of spa.
3. I've never needed to open the powered valves, might there be leaks there?
4. Should I start by once again replacing guts on the one check valve? Or an entirely new check valve assembly?

What I've tried/done

• There are ball valves (blue handles) on 'spa water feature' and 'pool return'. I've tried turning them individually and together overnight with no change.
• I've let the spa sit for 4 days, spa level gets to the lowest spa jet and no lower
• on the far left (at ground level) you'll see an odd pipe capped off. I cut/capped that myself about 8 years ago when this started happening and added the check valve (grey cap). I believe it was designed as a way for the pool sweep to operate regardless of spa/pool mode. Pool originally had manual controls, I added the automated controls myself around 2001. About 2 years ago got tired of this problem and replaced the guts of the check valve, no change. Flow arrow on check valve is pointing up

(edit 1/10 9:15am)
- forgot to mention that the blue handled ball valves are difficult to turn, and don't move the full range to off. I wiggled them back/forth a few times, and closed as best possible, and I *think* they are acting as closed valves but can't be sure
- also forgot to try overnight with the spa in spa mode. Started that this morning in case it gives some more evidence

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

The grey check valve that you disconnected was part of what is called a make-up line that should provide water to your spa when in the Pool mode. This line is what made your spa spillover into your pool when in the Pool mode. The grey check was there to prevent water from flowing from the spa and back into your pool.

I assume that when you cut and capped the line, you offset the automated Return valve so that when in the pool mode you still send some water to the spa for the spillover. Is that correct?

If so, you created the problem you have now. With the Return valve offset (not fully closed) it is allowing water to flow from the spa and into the pool when the pump is off.

You can fix the problem by reconnecting the make-up line and adding a new Jandy style check valve in place of the grey one and removing the offset you added to the Return valve.

Or, you can leave the line capped and just add a Jandy style check valve in the Spa Return line.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Rich,

The grey check valve that you disconnected was part of what is called a make-up line that should provide water to your spa when in the Pool mode. This line is what made your spa spillover into your pool when in the Pool mode. The grey check was there to prevent water from flowing from the spa and back into your pool.

I assume that when you cut and capped the line, you offset the automated Return valve so that when in the pool mode you still send some water to the spa for the spillover. Is that correct?

If so, you created the problem you have now. With the Return valve offset (not fully closed) it is allowing water to flow from the spa and into the pool when the pump is off.

You can fix the problem by reconnecting the make-up line and adding a new Jandy style check valve in place of the grey one and removing the offset you added to the Return valve.

Or, you can leave the line capped and just add a Jandy style check valve in the Spa Return line.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,
I also have the spa water feature to return water to the spa, and I normally leave it wide open. I think this is okay since if any future homeowner of this pool wants less water they can simply close the manual valve some/mostly.

Not sure what you mean by offset the automated return valve. I have never opened either automated valve, perhaps there is an adjustment in them to not fully close?

If leaving the line capped, why would adding a Jandy style check valve on the Spa Return line help? Isn't it fully off when in pool mode/normal operation?

Do you have any idea why water doesn't loop backwards through the 'spa water feature' and into 'pool return' anyway when in pool mode? Seems like that is currently a straight shot with no check valves and that the spa should drain down quickly (but it doesn't)

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

Let me start over...

What currently causes your spa to spillover into your pool?

What water feature do you have in the spa and how does it work? If you shut off the Spa Water feature, does the spa continue to spillover?

Show me a pic of your automated Return valve when in the pool mode. I need to see the lights.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Rich,

Let me start over...

What currently causes your spa to spillover into your pool?

What water feature do you have in the spa and how does it work? If you shut off the Spa Water feature, does the spa continue to spillover?

Show me a pic of your automated Return valve when in the pool mode. I need to see the lights.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I attached several photos that might help.
The spa spillover happens from the 'spa water feature' and is 1.5" PVC line that runs from pool equipment to the very bottom/center of the spa. A vertical threaded PVC pipe can be added to it to make a kind of bubbling fountain that returns to the spa, but I just leave that pipe off.
If I shut off the 'spa water feature' the spa shouldn't spillover, but I haven't tried it recently since I always want spillover.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

It appears to me that your two automated valve are in the correct position when in the Pool mode, which means your Return valve is not "off-set" to allow for a spillover. This means that the only thing causing your spillover should be your Spa water feature.

As a test, shut off the grey ball valve on the water feature line and tell me if the spillover stops. If it does, let it sit overnight and see of your spa still drains down.

What I don't understand is that if the water feature pipe is in the bottom of the spa, why does your spa only drain down to just below the jets. This normally means the problem is in the spa jets line. Keep in mind the spa water will only drain down until it is an equal level with the pool water.

The only other thing I can think of is that your Jandy Return valve is leaking.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

Another thing you can try is to screw the water feature pipe back in and see if the spa drains down.

I assume the end of water feature pipe is above the spa water line.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Rich,

It appears to me that your two automated valve are in the correct position when in the Pool mode, which means your Return valve is not "off-set" to allow for a spillover. This means that the only thing causing your spillover should be your Spa water feature.

As a test, shut off the grey ball valve on the water feature line and tell me if the spillover stops. If it does, let it sit overnight and see of your spa still drains down.

What I don't understand is that if the water feature pipe is in the bottom of the spa, why does your spa only drain down to just below the jets. This normally means the problem is in the spa jets line. Keep in mind the spa water will only drain down until it is an equal level with the pool water.

The only other thing I can think of is that your Jandy Return valve is leaking.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,
With the pump running in pool mode I just let the spa refill again and then closed valve on the spa water feature (pump still running) and as expected the spillover mostly stops. But there is a small amount that still spills over. As I mentioned these valves don't turn easily and not to "full off". The spillover leak is about a 1/2 gallon per hour (estimated) with the spa water feature closed off.
Good idea about the water feature pipe, I added it and will see if the water still drops. I used pipe tape on the male end of the pipe so should be a reasonably good seal at the bottom of the spa. It is a little below the water line when spa is full.
My suspicion is that the leaking is coming backwards thru the spa jets because leaving the spa off for up to 4 days gets to spa jets level and then doesn't move at all. I've carefully measured the spa and pool water levels and the jets are still about 2" above pool water level after 4 days, so I believe the spa jets are where the water is siphoning to the pool.

What puzzles me is how this ever works at all because water *should* flow backwards through the spa water feature to the pool returns. But maybe there is a buried check valve.

fwiw - This pool was installed by a reputable company, everything overall seems to be reasonable quality. But the lack of check valves has me second guessing myself.

Will take 4-6 hours before I'll be confident in how the water is dropping so I'll probably comment again tomorrow unless anything obvious.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

Looking at your above ground plumbing, your spa jets should only be connected to the line labeled as "Spa Return"... Assuming that is true, then the only way water can flow through that pipe would be through a "Closed" Return valve. I'd open the return valve and inspect the diverter and see if it looks to be in good shape.

Question. Between your tab feeder and your Return valve is a funny looking black device with a grey top with a clear lid. Is that a check valve?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Rich,

Looking at your above ground plumbing, your spa jets should only be connected to the line labeled as "Spa Return"... Assuming that is true, then the only way water can flow through that pipe would be through a "Closed" Return valve. I'd open the return valve and inspect the diverter and see if it looks to be in good shape.

Question. Between your tab feeder and your Return valve is a funny looking black device with a grey top with a clear lid. Is that a check valve?

Thanks,

Jim R.

The funny looking black device with grey top is a check valve. The flow arrow on the clear cover is pointing vertically up and towards the return valve. I've replaced the guts a few years back and didn't solve this issue.

So to summarize at this point, the current best theory is:

The 3-way return valve (automated) doesn't fully close on the spa jets side
AND water flows from
spa jets back to pool
OR
funny looking black checkvalve is also faulty and water flows back through heater and filter and pump

The only catch is that there must be a check valve that's buried to prevent backflow from the spa water feature. I've never dug up the ground and seems unlikely but possible.

I'll comment again tomorrow about what happens to water level now that the spa feature pipe is installed.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Jim - not surprisingly the spa level dropped as it has been, so more evidence the leak is not through the spa feature.

Removed the diverter valve, there is no debris and no visible damage to the blue o-ring, but I suspect it's compressed. I measured it with a set of calipers at the 4 corners and the o-ring sits proud of the curved valve by about .015", so about 1/64th.

I normally buy parts from one of the mainstream pool companies online, but a quick search found this one on amazon for about $16. Seems like I should replace both 3-way Jandy diverter valves.
Any reason I should not try putting lube on the existing part? Probably not a long term fix.

https://www.amazon.com/ATIE-PoolSupplyTown-Diverter-Valve-Replacement/dp/B07MXSV5S8/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=jandy%2Bvalve%2Breplacement%2Bparts&qid=1673470831&sr=8-1-spons&smid=A2P38V7C7755KW&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzRk5CS0pQNVZGRTU0JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTc1NTYzMTk2Uk8yNTU1MkVMRiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDMxMjc4MjZYNTM1RFJMRU5XMyZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

 

[Jimrahbe]

Rich,

I see nothing wrong with what you want to buy, nor adding lube before you do the install.

I read a thread the other day about a guy who had the wrong diverter installed in his Jandy valve. It was shorted than required so it fit but did not seal properly.

I'd make sure the diverter you have is the proper size. Apparently, they have different valve bodies that require different size diverters. Seems to me that the OP of that thread was having similar problems to yours.

Do you know if the current diverter is the original or have you had them replaced in the past?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Jim,
I bought the house in 2001 with the pool already installed for maybe 2-3 years. I've never needed to replace the diverter myself, so it's likely that they are original.

I did end up applying a liberal amount of lube to the inside of the diverter box and to the moving part and reassembled in the correct position, that should be a good test, I'll comment tomorrow if the spa holds.

Thanks for all of your hand holding here ;-)

 

[RichSiegmund]

Followup for future -

Applying lube reduced the leakage by about 50% overnight, so I'm confident this is the source of the leakage.

I just ordered the cheapest version of the part from Amazon called "ATIE Neverlube Diverter Valve Kit 4720 Replacement for Zodiac Jandy 2 Port or 3 Port Never Lube Diverter Valve 4720 (2 Pack)" ($32 for two diverters)

Can't be certain yet whether it will be the right size, my valves are the 2-2.5" version where 2" pipe fits directly into the valve.

I did search Jandy's documentation here: Never Lube Jandy Valve: Jandy Pro Series Valve | Jandy and oddly it appears from the pdf's that both the 1.5-2" and 2-2.5" valves use the same diverter #4720, which is what the Amazon part supposedly is. One review on Amazon said they needed to drill out the bottom spindle, but that's not a big deal if I need that. The Jandy docs show both PVC and CPVC flavors of the valves.

 

[RichSiegmund]

Another update, I received the pair of diverter valves from Amazon ($32 total) and carefully compared them for size since there are differences, but the valves fit without modification in my 2-2.5" Jandy valves (my valves have 2" pvc fitting directly into all 3 sides of the valve.

Differences (see pictures)

• there is no hole on the bottom spindle, but bottom spindle is shorter (eliminates need for the hole)
• top shaft is a little longer (but my automated valves had alot of spare room for a taller spindle
• when installed, the new diverter sit .05" lower than the old one. This concerns me a little because it might mean that the blue gasket isn't as centered and the gasket isn't riding fully on the curved flange.

The new diverter went in easily, took a little bit of side pressure to get the top plate back on. I was SUPER careful not to cross thread the screws when reassembling. I did apply lube the the gasket surface.

The valve does switch between pool and spa mode as it should, will take me some time before I can determine if the leak is solved.