So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

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Thanks for the tip about Duda Diesel. It's the shipping that kills me...it's $55 for 35lbs of Boric Acid, which is cheap yes, but then shipping is $50 on top of that. I'm just going to have to bite the bullet, and either use the Mule Team from Wal Mart or go the Soft Touch route.
 
Yikes! Went nuts with acid!!

Well,
Got the cya, ph, fc etc. balanced so I went ahead with the borate bonanza.
That is until I misread my acid calc! I added the necessary borax (100 oz) but somehow used that same number for acid! So, my PH plummeted to about 6.2! Should I just add Borax back to get the ph right? Will my resulting high borates screw something up with the rest of my chemistry? Or mess with my swg? I'm kicking myself for being a..... Well, you know.

Please let me know the best course of action. In the interim, I threw the remainder of my borax in to get close to 7.0 ph to reduce potential damage.

Thanks
 
I calculate that your 12 foot round by 3 foot deep pool is 2500 gallons. So to get to 50 ppm it would have taken 147 ounces weight of Borax, not 100 ounces. At any rate, if your pH is near 7.0, I'd just aerate the water at this point to get the pH up the rest of the way assuming your TA isn't very low. Point your return up to disturb the water surface. If that doesn't work, then you can add some more Borax to raise the pH more unless your TA is very low in which case you can use pH Up (or Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda).
 
Thanks Chem Geek!
With my Intex inflata-insta-pool the normal volume conventions don't apply. But, your aertion ph rise suggestion is noted. Fortunately, we had a nice storm cell pop ip overnight that will assist with the process. We'll see. I thought the Boraxification dramatically reduced the effectiveness of aeration for ph rise.
 
rcy said:
I'm not kidding, I read all 12 pages a few days ago, but I don't want to read them all again...so hopefully this hasn't been covered..

I found this stuff (and a CUlator!!!) at a local pool store. Capo (or PoolBoss) Soft Touch. The MSDS - http://www.vanislewater.com/images/dlfi ... _touch.pdf shows Sodium Teraborate Penta Hydrate 30 - 60 % and Boric Acid 60 - 40 %. Is this PH neutral?

It was 8kg for roughly $50CDN. If I recall correctly from reading the label I think I'll need less of this than if I were to use Mule Team, and if it's PH neutral, I won't need the MA. The MA is $9 for 4 litres. I'm not sure how much the Mule Team is at the Wal Mart near me.
Click to expand...

OK..never mind. Mule Team is still cheaper. I emailed Capo Industries today and asked what the ppm of borates would be if I followed their directions of 2kg per 10000 litres of water. They told me it would be 8 to 10 ppm. If they actually know what they're talking about, then to get to 50ppm would cost much more than Mule Team and Muriatic Acid.
 
I finally did the borate thing on Sat. Went off without a hitch. Water was already sparkling so no help there but the PH is much harder to move, a good thing! I've airated for 2 days to go from 7.0 to 7.3 so I'm leaving it there. I notice the squeekyness and waiting to see how good of an algaecide it is since I get the "stuff" around the jets and seats. 1 thing I noticed is I can taste a difference. Not bad but different.
I use citric acid as needed for stains so I'm curious how hard it will be to raise the PH after application. Time will tell.
fc-5
cc-0
ph-7.3
ta-80
ch-300
cya-40
borates-50

:cheers:
 
Well, I went all in with the borax to overcome my "over-aciding" and all my numbers returned to normal. Hooray!
Almost normal: due to my lack of vacuuming, I had a pretty good build-up of pollen balls and misc plant material that gobbled up my fc on a daily basis. A good cleaning and the activation of my SWG has helped that, and I've added stabilizer to bring my CYA up to 70.

I'm waiting on my lamotte borate strips to see how high my borate level has ended up. I will say that everyone that has been in the water has been amazed at how good/soft their skin and hair was for at least two days after. The combo of salt and assumed high borates has created my own little skin and hair spa!

Thanks
 

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Added Borates today using Boric Acid from Dudadiesel.com. 53 bucks shipped (25 lbs), not much more than doing Borax and MA (would have been about 45 bucks I think). I bought on Thursday and received on Saturday!. Just added at the return (25 lbs in about 3 minutes), then brushed, then vacuumed left over chunks. All signs of the crystals were gone in under an hour. Decided to check level at about hour 3, just for fun...now I understand why the aquacheck strips have such a bad rep...indicating maybe 20-50 ppm...who knows. I need to get the lamote strips. Circulating now...water looks great, though it looked great before thanks to the knowledge on this forum!
 
I added borax/MA a few months ago and I'm a believer. I just drained/refilled about 40% of my pool to reduce the CH level so I need to top up my borates to 50 as soon as my TA falls to the 70-80 level.

I checked the 20 Mule Team website and I notice that the use for swimming pools is not listed as a use for the product. Must be some federal regulation preventing it. They do say that it's not approved as a roach killer so they can't say it kills roaches.
 
HouTex said:
I checked the 20 Mule Team website and I notice that the use for swimming pools is not listed as a use for the product. Must be some federal regulation preventing it. They do say that it's not approved as a roach killer so they can't say it kills roaches.
Click to expand...
As shown in the ProTeam® Supreme MSDS the product is Sodium tetraborate pentahydrate which is almost identical to 20 Mule Team Borax which is Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (only the hydrated water content is different). 20 Mule Team Borax just didn't bother to register their product use to include swimming pools, that's all. ProTeam® Supreme is a registered pesticide for pools. Interestingly, ProTeam® Supreme Plus which is mostly boric acid does not appear in the database nor does 20 Mule Team Borax. As Jason points out below, it's more about money than anything else. The ProTeam® Supreme product says it is "EPA registered" while ProTeam® Supreme Plus product does not claim any EPA registration. Both products, after pH adjustment, produce identical boric acid / borate ion in pool water.
 
HouTex said:
Must be some federal regulation preventing it. They do say that it's not approved as a roach killer so they can't say it kills roaches.
Click to expand...
It isn't that there is a regulation prohibiting it. They would need to get it certified, which costs a fair bit of money. They don't appear to think it is worth spending the money to get it certified.
 
I am in the process as we speak of clearing up a green algea problem i had planed on adding borates so my ? is would there be an advantage or disadvantage to doing it while i am cleaning up the algea i have the borax an muirotic acid waiting so should i do it now or wait till i am all clear?
 
Since you may be backwashing more frequently to clear the pool (if it's got a lot of algae), then adding borates now would end up getting diluted more due to the increased backwashing. That would be the main reason for waiting to add it later after things are more stable.
 
OK...test kit arrived and I found 36ppm. Added three more boxes of Mule Team (and the associated MA). Wow. I hope I'm not just seeing this because subconsciously I want to see results, but NOW the water looks really reflective and sparkly. I was a little underwhelmed when I first added the Mule Team because I didn't really see any diffence (if anything, I thought maybe the pool looked duller than before I added the borates). After adding the additional boxes, I tested again and got a reading of 46ppm.

Seriously, would that 10ppm difference be all that was needed for the much mentioned 'sparkle'?
 
I don't think it's the 10 ppm since the difference is probably a linear effect, but it just gets to the point where you start to notice it more. The surface tension of the water gets reduced, as far as I can tell based on the regular meniscus in test vials getting pretty flat after adding borates. The water does tend to sparkle more, but that's very subjective. Some people report that it feels better on their skin, but I haven't noticed that myself.
 

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