Should I change my current pump for a solar heater?

[mas985]

According to Zodiac tech support, the PS4 & 6 support automatic switching between low speed and high speed when solar is engaged. It is hard wired (not configurable) and isn't documented in the manual.

Also, they make an upgrade kit which is basically a swap of the power center board to go from a PS4 to a PS6 to get extra relays.

Since the Aqualink system supports separate run times for high speed and low speed, the controller can be setup for just low speed and when solar kicks on, it will automatically switch to high speed.

Next, to save on energy, the pump could be easily downsized with a change of impeller and just keeping the existing motor. The motor would draw less power on high speed when solar is running. How far it can be downsized is dependent on the configuration of both the pool plumbing and the solar plumbing. Pipe sizes, run lengths, etc.

However, if the desire is to run on low speed with solar, that is a whole different animal but it can be done you just need to understand some of trade offs.

 

[Isaac-1]

Ah, don't you love poor documentation

 

[haz]

Isaac-1, yes, that appears to be a typo of my installer's - there doesn't seem to be a GL-236.

According to Zodiac tech support, the PS4 & 6 support automatic switching between low speed and high speed when solar is engaged. It is hard wired (not configurable) and isn't documented in the manual.

Also, they make an upgrade kit which is basically a swap of the power center board to go from a PS4 to a PS6 to get extra relays.

Since the Aqualink system supports separate run times for high speed and low speed, the controller can be setup for just low speed and when solar kicks on, it will automatically switch to high speed.

Next, to save on energy, the pump could be easily downsized with a change of impeller and just keeping the existing motor. The motor would draw less power on high speed when solar is running. How far it can be downsized is dependent on the configuration of both the pool plumbing and the solar plumbing. Pipe sizes, run lengths, etc.

However, if the desire is to run on low speed with solar, that is a whole different animal but it can be done you just need to understand some of trade offs.

My idea is to run high speed when solar and low speed otherwise. So the first question is what type of Zodiac controller I have... I wish it were more clear. The power center box says "Aqualink RS". The pool company that just installed the system refers to what I have as "PDA4", and I'd need to switch out the controller for a "PDA6" to add another item, in this case solar. They want to charge $400 for that - seems very high.

I am attaching photos of the face of the controller and the diagram in the panel.

So if it is a "PS4" as mas985 writes, then it sounds like just getting the PDA/PS 6 version w/ the extra controllers should allow me to do what I need, that is run high-speed to the solar heater when it's on and low-speed otherwise? If so, maybe I should find someone else to switch it for less than $400?

Also, it sounds like maybe I should consider changing the high-speed mode from 2.0 hp to say 1.0? I figure 1.0 should be enough to provide the required 4-6 GPM per panel for 9 panels. A regular pool contractor should be able to change the impeller to do this?

In terms of the specifications, the panels will be approximately 23' at the bottom and 29.25' at the top above the pool level. The pipes will be 2" to the solar heater.

 

[mas985]

So if it is a "PS4" as mas985 writes, then it sounds like just getting the PDA/PS 6 version w/ the extra controllers should allow me to do what I need, that is run high-speed to the solar heater when it's on and low-speed otherwise? If so, maybe I should find someone else to switch it for less than $400?

How about yourself? It really shouldn't be all that hard to do.

Also, it sounds like maybe I should consider changing the high-speed mode from 2.0 hp to say 1.0? I figure 1.0 should be enough to provide the required 4-6 GPM per panel for 9 panels. A regular pool contractor should be able to change the impeller to do this?

You can go smaller if you want. With 2" plumbing, a 3/4 HP would easily deliver 54 GPM (6x9) and have plenty of flow rate left over. Also, it is not hard to change an impeller if that is something you feel up to.

 

[jkurl]

Are you going to be using a actuated valve to divert the to the solar when you want to and when you don't have it just got through the filter. If so you can use the actuated valve and hook it into the solar portion in the upper left corner where it say solar, cleaner, return and intake. Then at that point you would assign that Jva to the solar and then set the solar to run at high speed when you program it. You might be also able to set the pump speed in the pump settings to high when solar is enabled. I have a vs speed pump which I have way more control of the speeds but you should be able to program either hi or low in the settings. Read your pda manual not just the ps4 manual it has more programming info in it. I had the aquslinkrs pda/ps4 for almost two years I just upgraded to the iaqualink. Using the actuated valve will cut out the need for a relay possibly. I think Jandy makes a dual speed pump relay as well. I think I read it in a manual but need to check again.

From the PDA manual

4.3.1 Two Speed Manual Operation

1. For Pool and Spa Combination Units
If your control is a POOL and SPA combination with a 2-speed fi ltration pump, the control will operate as
follows: HIGH SPEED (Filter Pump) must be on before LOW SPEED. Filter Pump button, as well as the Spa
button, turns it to HIGH SPEED. LOW SPEED (AUX 2) button toggles back and forth from LOW to HIGH.

2. For Pool or Spa Only Units
To use HIGH/LOW Speeds, Filter Pump turns on HIGH SPEED, AUX 2 turns on LOW SPEED. Whatever
mode last used is the off button. To toggle, press whichever speed is not on.

3. Two Speed Programming for All Units
When programming HIGH and LOW Speeds to operate together, think of HIGH SPEED (Filter Pump) as
total duration of fi ltration time, then set Low Speed (AUX 2) to operate within that duration. For example,
if you want High Speed on for 2 hours and Low Speed for 10 hours, program the Filter Pump (High Speed)
from 8 AM to 8 PM and Low Speed from 10 AM to 8 PM.
NOTE It is not necessary to program both HIGH and LOW Speeds, even with a Combo Control System. If only LOW SPEED is
programmed, HIGH SPEED will turn on at the LOW SPEED on time to prime the pump. After 3 minutes the system will
switch to LOW SPEED for the remainder of its programmed time.

I am wondering why the swcg is set to run on low speed only. you can change the percentage of chlorine produced through the PDA and if it is generating more chlorine on high speed you can turn down the percentage on the swcg.

6.9 Assign JVA Menu
The ASSIGN JVAs menu allows Jandy Valve Actuators (JVAs) to be assigned to any auxiliary button. This means
that whenever you press that auxiliary button, a valve turns. On pool/spa combination models, if neither a non-booster
pump pool cleaner or a solar heat system is installed, there are two extra JVAs that can be assigned to auxiliary
buttons: the cleaner JVA and the solar JVA. On pool/spa only models, there are four JVAs that can be assigned to
auxiliary buttons. The installer must set these JVAs for this feature to operate correctly. Assigning JVAs lets the owner
control certain features like diverting water to a waterfall or bank of spa jets. Multiple JVAs can be assigned to one
auxiliary button without extra hardware

You can do the assign JVS yourself from the PDA. I also think on the back of the PS4 power center there is a spare aux spot that can be used but I am not 100% on that one if you need to use another aux spot.

Read page 25 and 26 of this manual. it is not the PDA manual but it will work for your system.

http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/~/medi ... /6919.ashx

Jerry

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[haz]

I could change it myself if it's fairly straightforward, which I assume it should be. I've been trying to find online how much it would be to order the part myself, but I find "Jandy PDA-PS6", which seems to be a remote. I don't use a remote - just use an app. But I can't find just the part for the panel. I see these:
http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Jand...pa-Combination-Pump-Heater--6-Aux/PDA-PS6.htm
but those just show pics of remotes, and it's more expensive than the $400 the pool company quoted. I figure it includes the controller for the box, but it's unclear. I don't see anything sold for less than $650.

I figure your calculation of 3/4 HP is based on my roof height, which is a little more than some 2-story houses. See that instructions for changing the impeller are in the manual. Looking online for parts - they're listed as "full" vs. "up" hp - maybe the manual has parts list of what replacement impellors I can install.

 

[mas985]

Actually, the 3/4 HP is based upon the flow rate and panel size not the height of the house. Again, I am using a 1/2 HP pump on a two story solar install and it works fine and has more flow rate than I actually need so I bypass some of the water. A 1/2 HP would probably work fine for you too but I just wanted you to have more margin in case your system has more head loss than mine.

Also the impeller I am suggesting is a 3/4 HP full rated or 1 HP up rated impeller which are identical.

 

[Isaac-1]

You may want to try the existing impeller and see if it generates enough flow before downsizing. It is a simple job to switch, but since it is already there why not try it first.

 

[haz]

I have never had a solar heater, so I have no idea what information it gives you. Do you get a pressure reading from it, which you would divide by the number of panels to see if you're getting 4-6 GPM per panel? Or you guys connect a separate flow meter to see?

You may want to try the existing impeller and see if it generates enough flow before downsizing. It is a simple job to switch, but since it is already there why not try it first.

It sounds like my 2.0 hp high-speed should definitely generate enough flow given people using as low as 0.5 hp on a 2-story house. But if there's a way to measure, then I could do so and get an idea how much lower hp I can go. So it sounds like they're set up w/ a bypass possibility if the pressure to the heater would yield more than 4-6 GPM per panel?

Now I would assume that the one impeller gives you both speeds? So if I downsize to a 3/4 HP full rated or 1 HP up rated impeller, does that also downgrade my low-speed hp? It's currently 0.25 hp - I don't know if lowering that would work for normal use.

 

[mas985]

Low speed is always half the flow rate as high speed so when you downsize the impeller both high and low speed will have lower flow rates. But you seem to be a little too focused on HP. It is a really poor indicator of pump performance and flow rate. Pump head curves are a much better indicator.

A 2 HP is going to be over sized for nearly any application except maybe a spa so I can tell you right now it is going to be too much. But it doesn't hurt to wait until you have the panels installed to get some actual measurements.

Also, there are several ways to determine flow rates without a flow meter. I have a couple of spreadsheet tools (see sig) that can help with that.

 

[Isaac-1]

A pressure gauge and a flow meter on the solar plumbing are both a nice additions to a basic solar heater installation, although far from common. For relatively low cost flow meters take a look at http://tftestkits.net/Water-Flow-Meters-c12/ for pressure gauges all you need is to add in a PVC T with a threaded 1/2 inch connection on the T, a 1/2 to 1/4 inch reducer and a good quality low pressure gauge in the 0-30 or 0-60 psi range.

Here is a photo of my setup with pressure gauge and flow meter (the flowmeter was a ebay deal and is massive overkill for what I need, but was only $100 new in the box)

note actuator had not been installed on valve yet when photo was taken
You can't see it in the photo, but flow is reading 40gpm and pressure is 7 psi

 

[haz]

So do most of you suggest adding a flow meter like the one TFtestKits sells onto solar heater line, then likely downgrading my pump in a way to get the required 4-6 GPM per panel?

mas985 - I realized the hp number can be as deceiving, as e.g. assuming the wattage of a lightbulb is directly correlated with lumens, even though some are incandescent and others LED. But you do agree that 2.0 hp will give more flow than needed given the likely flow rate based on my setup and the pump head curves. However if I downsize the pump, I'll expect less flow that I currently have on low-speed at 0.25 hp. How do I know if this would be enough for the main filter functioning of the pool?

Also, going back to my previous concern, does anyone have a sense of based on what type of equipment I have (see the 3rd post on Page 2 for picture - Aqualink RS. I will quote the main part below), if I have equipment that can be set up to run low-speed regularly and switch into high speed only when solar heating is needed? Or do I need to do some type of work-around as Isaac-1 and I were discussing?

According to Zodiac tech support, the PS4 & 6 support automatic switching between low speed and high speed when solar is engaged. It is hard wired (not configurable) and isn't documented in the manual.

Also, they make an upgrade kit which is basically a swap of the power center board to go from a PS4 to a PS6 to get extra relays.

Since the Aqualink system supports separate run times for high speed and low speed, the controller can be setup for just low speed and when solar kicks on, it will automatically switch to high speed.

My idea is to run high speed when solar and low speed otherwise. So the first question is what type of Zodiac controller I have... I wish it were more clear. The power center box says "Aqualink RS". The pool company that just installed the system refers to what I have as "PDA4", and I'd need to switch out the controller for a "PDA6" to add another item, in this case solar. They want to charge $400 for that - seems very high.

I am attaching photos of the face of the controller and the diagram in the panel.

So if it is a "PS4" as mas985 writes, then it sounds like just getting the PDA/PS 6 version w/ the extra controllers should allow me to do what I need, that is run high-speed to the solar heater when it's on and low-speed otherwise? If so, maybe I should find someone else to switch it for less than $400?

 

[jkurl]

So do most of you suggest adding a flow meter like the one TFtestKits sells onto solar heater line, then likely downgrading my pump in a way to get the required 4-6 GPM per panel?

mas985 - I realized the hp number can be as deceiving, as e.g. assuming the wattage of a lightbulb is directly correlated with lumens, even though some are incandescent and others LED. But you do agree that 2.0 hp will give more flow than needed given the likely flow rate based on my setup and the pump head curves. However if I downsize the pump, I'll expect less flow that I currently have on low-speed at 0.25 hp. How do I know if this would be enough for the main filter functioning of the pool?

Also, going back to my previous concern, does anyone have a sense of based on what type of equipment I have (see the 3rd post on Page 2 for picture - Aqualink RS. I will quote the main part below), if I have equipment that can be set up to run low-speed regularly and switch into high speed only when solar heating is needed? Or do I need to do some type of work-around as Isaac-1 and I were discussing?

According to Zodiac tech support, the PS4 & 6 support automatic switching between low speed and high speed when solar is engaged. It is hard wired (not configurable) and isn't documented in the manual.

Also, they make an upgrade kit which is basically a swap of the power center board to go from a PS4 to a PS6 to get extra relays.

Since the Aqualink system supports separate run times for high speed and low speed, the controller can be setup for just low speed and when solar kicks on, it will automatically switch to high speed.

My idea is to run high speed when solar and low speed otherwise. So the first question is what type of Zodiac controller I have... I wish it were more clear. The power center box says "Aqualink RS". The pool company that just installed the system refers to what I have as "PDA4", and I'd need to switch out the controller for a "PDA6" to add another item, in this case solar. They want to charge $400 for that - seems very high.

I am attaching photos of the face of the controller and the diagram in the panel.

So if it is a "PS4" as mas985 writes, then it sounds like just getting the PDA/PS 6 version w/ the extra controllers should allow me to do what I need, that is run high-speed to the solar heater when it's on and low-speed otherwise? If so, maybe I should find someone else to switch it for less than $400?

Haz,

What app are you using to control your system? Also please read the stuff I posted. I had the same system you have and know it very well.

Jerry


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[mas985]

So do most of you suggest adding a flow meter like the one TFtestKits sells onto solar heater line, then likely downgrading my pump in a way to get the required 4-6 GPM per panel?

You will need a check valve on the output of your filter so you might as well use one of those. It takes the guesswork out of determining flow rate. However, as I mentioned before, there are other ways to estimate flow rate. The choice is yours. I do not have one and many others with solar do not have one.

How do I know if this would be enough for the main filter functioning of the pool?

Filters work better at lower flow rates so I am not sure I understand this question. If you mean skimming, that is something different and there is a chance you would need higher flow rates for that. If you are that concerned about getting the "right" flow rates for everything, a VS pump might be your best bet. It takes the guesswork out of pump sizing.

Also, going back to my previous concern, does anyone have a sense of based on what type of equipment I have (see the 3rd post on Page 2 for picture - Aqualink RS. I will quote the main part below), if I have equipment that can be set up to run low-speed regularly and switch into high speed only when solar heating is needed? Or do I need to do some type of work-around as Isaac-1 and I were discussing?

I think several of us said you can. But again, if you are skeptical, call Zodiac support. They will confirm that the controller will switch to high speed when solar is engaged.

http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/Support.aspx

 

[Isaac-1]

I was asked in a PM about why I choose to install both a pressure gauge and a flowmeter, in particular what was I gaining by having a pressure gauge, and I thought some of you might be wondering as well, so in my case I learned my eyeball fittings were causing excessive back pressure, in general the lower the pressure a solar panels sees the less likely it will fail (leak).

Here is my exact reply:

... in fact when I first installed these new panels I was seeing 10-11 psi, so I increased the size of my return eyeballs by one size, and saw the pressure drop to about 6 psi. Of course this then lead to circulation / skimming problems, so then I switched out the lowest flow eyeball fitting (in the deep end) for one of these venturi fittings:

www.infusionpool.com

Which brought the pressure up to the current 7 psi range, and helped my circulation issue considerably.

 

[haz]

jkurl - I have iAqualink B00088, and so I control the devices via the website or phone iAqualink app. I read thru some of your posts on your upgrade to iAqualink - thanks.

How do I know if this would be enough for the main filter functioning of the pool?

Filters work better at lower flow rates so I am not sure I understand this question. If you mean skimming, that is something different and there is a chance you would need higher flow rates for that. If you are that concerned about getting the "right" flow rates for everything, a VS pump might be your best bet. It takes the guesswork out of pump sizing.

I see that filters work better at low flow rates. But I assume there's some lower limit of flow rate required for the filter to function. I currently run the pump at low-speed 0.25 hp for 12 hours (2.0 hp high-speed). If I changed e.g. to a 1.0 hp impellor, my low-speed would reduce, say to 0.125 hp (if the math works that way). It may be even more efficient that what I currently run, at half the hp running approximately 30% less water flow. So maybe I'd increase the pump run time to 15 hours or so?

Is that enough water flow for pool filtration? I don't know if it matters, but my pool level is ~2" above the ground by the pool equipment. Also, I don't skim with that pump - we have an overflow edge that runs 30 minutes per day and skims to a trough on a separate pump that's also for the spa: 3.0 hp. So I really just need one speed for basic filtration and a 2nd higher speed for the solar heater, when needed.

Good idea about contacting Zodiac - will do that. I think the people who mentioned changing the speed of the pump based on solar being on used other systems and/or workarounds.

By the way, this looks like the system I have:
Jandy RS-PS4 AquaLink RS OneTouch RS4 Pool and Spa Combination (Pump, Heater + 4 Aux) Indoor or Wireless Control Panel
Circuit Board, 2 Actuators, 4 Relays, and 2 Temperature Sensors
http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.com/detail/6231.htm

Jandy RS-PS6 AquaLink RS OneTouch RS6 Pool and Spa Combination (Pump, Heater + 5 Aux) Indoor or Wireless Control Panel
Circuit Board, 2 Actuators, 6 Relays, and 2 Temperature Sensors
http://www.americanbestpoolsupply.com/detail/6230.htm

and this breaker box:
Jandy 6614-LD AquaLink RS Sub Panel Power Center 12 Breaker Base
http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Jand...r-12-Breaker-Base/6614-LD.htm?cmpid=fbt_59767

so from what I see, if the Aqualink system can change pump speeds, $400 might be a reasonable price for my pool installer to upgrade from Jandy RS-PS4 to RS-PS6 rather than get a separate solar controller and add an RIB SPDT relay.

You will need a check valve on the output of your filter so you might as well use one of those. It takes the guesswork out of determining flow rate. However, as I mentioned before, there are other ways to estimate flow rate. The choice is yours. I do not have one and many others with solar do not have one.

So if I install a flow meter, I should tell the solar installer to put it right after the filter, right before the solar return, or between the solar return and outflow? I'm sure they should be similar readings in any of those locations, but wanted to see what you recommend.

 

[jkurl]

If you add in an actuator you won't need to upgrade to the ps6 and add in another relay. The actuator will hook into the solar port. Your system will automatically see the solar port is used. Go into scheduling and set what time you want you solar on for. Then you can setup your pump speeds. I paid $400 dollars for my upgrade to iaqualink and I got a rs8 board with mine. I still think you can do this with out paying a large amount of money.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[mas985]

But I assume there's some lower limit of flow rate required for the filter to function.

Not really. It just takes longer to filter the water.

So maybe I'd increase the pump run time to 15 hours or so?

I doubt you would really need that much run time. I run my pump only 4 hours per day and about half that time is running solar at full speed and half is running low speed.

I still don't think you read this article which I suggest you do: pool-school/pump_run_time

So if I install a flow meter, I should tell the solar installer to put it right after the filter, right before the solar return, or between the solar return and outflow? I'm sure they should be similar readings in any of those locations, but wanted to see what you recommend.

You have to have a check valve after the filter no matter what. But if you put the flow meter after the filter, it will read total flow rate. If you put the flow meter on the solar return before it plumbs back into the pad equipment (which also requires a check valve), it will measure the flow rate in the solar system only. So if you bypass some of the water, the second method would measure only the flow rate going through the panels while the first method would measure the total flow rate (solar + bypass). Those are the two locations that require a check valve anyway so I would only consider those.

 

[Isaac-1]

Flow meters add some back pressure, therefore I would suggest installing it on the feed side going to the solar panel so as to minimize pressure on solar panels which may contribute to shortening their service lives. You can still pick locations that show either Solar panel only flow, or total flow assuming you have some sort of partial bypass in the design.

Also you should be aware that some filters have a built in check valve already to prevent backflow to the pump, (my Hayward Perflex DE filter has one) although many models of filters do not. I don't know about your cartridge filter.

Ike

 

[mas985]

Just to be clear, the filter check valve needs to go between the filter and the solar valve, otherwise, it won't prevent back-flow from both the supply and the return lines so putting the flow meter in that valve will ONLY show total flow rate.