Sequestrant vs. CYA Bound Chlorine

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The Metal Magic sponge test looks very promising! The 5 minute sponge trial lightened the stain. The 15 minute sponge returned most of the contact area to what I believe to be the original color, but left a smaller subset stain within that footprint. I guess that's what the ProTeam Sponge Test instructions call multiple stain layers. The 30 minute sponge looks perfect so I guess I'm going with the 1 quart Metal Magic per 2,500 gallons of water dosage, per the ProTeam 30 minute Sponge Test result instructions.

1 qt. per 2500 gal. is a lot of what appears to be a very nasty material in the water (HEDP), compared to the "normal" or 5 minute sponge result dosage (1 qt. per 10,000 gallons of water initially and then maintenance of 3-6 oz per 10,000 gallons of water per month).

The sponge test includes no additional recommended time before resuming normal pool operation but 48 hours seems really short. Will chlorine kill the HEDP once it's brought up above the treatment 1-3 ppm levels (1 ppm is recommended and 3 ppm is maximum during treatment)?

I'll probably wait until after the long weekend to try the stain removal treatment so the pool will be usable.
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HEDP is a very common metal sequestrant and pretty much all of the metal stain removal products use it. Chlorine does oxidize HEDP slowly into phosphates but here’s the problem - once the HEDP breaks down, the metals will reoxidize and cause stains again. So, if you can’t transfer the metal-laden water out of the pool and replace it with fresh water, then you have to live with maintenance doses of HEDP to keep the metal in solution. That means swimming in the pool with the sequestrant. It’s not going to hurt you or anyone else at the levels you are adding to the pool. When you read things like MSDS/SDS sheets for chemicals, you have to understand that the hazardous exposure sections in those documents are for the most concentrated form of the chemical and typically at doses and exposure rates that no one would ever see in regular, ordinary use. Those exposure and safety guidelines are for people that work with the chemical and are potentially exposed to high levels of it on a daily basis.
 
JoyfulNoise said:
HEDP is a very common metal sequestrant and pretty much all of the metal stain removal products use it. Chlorine does oxidize HEDP slowly into phosphates but here’s the problem - once the HEDP breaks down, the metals will reoxidize and cause stains again. So, if you can’t transfer the metal-laden water out of the pool and replace it with fresh water, then you have to live with maintenance doses of HEDP to keep the metal in solution. That means swimming in the pool with the sequestrant. It’s not going to hurt you or anyone else at the levels you are adding to the pool. When you read things like MSDS/SDS sheets for chemicals, you have to understand that the hazardous exposure sections in those documents are for the most concentrated form of the chemical and typically at doses and exposure rates that no one would ever see in regular, ordinary use. Those exposure and safety guidelines are for people that work with the chemical and are potentially exposed to high levels of it on a daily basis.
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Thanks, JoyfulNoise! I feel better about the SDS and I'll treat later next week.
 
I'm 36 hours into the sponge test prescribed Metal Magic treatment and, based on only the pool's steps, it looks like MM is working to remove stains. However, the white, chalky cloudiness in the pool is so bad that I can't say anything about the stains deeper in the pool, because I can't see more than the first step! It really makes me wonder if MM (acid) just works by simply by dissolving the surface plaster in the pool, which concerns me with this 25, 30 or perhaps even 40 year-old pool!

The white cloud formed the first night and it's not getting any better with 24/7 sand filtering and something like 18 hours per day of Aquabot (original model) roving and filtering. I've maintained the FC at recommended 1 ppm. CYA is now about 22 ppm. The previous owner left a bottle of EZ-Chlor Drop Out but TFP doesn't seem too keen on flocculants. Nonetheless, one MM user here reported good results with Leslies Alum, which is aluminum sulfate, and the liquid flocculants (aluminum chloride) like my EZ-Chlor might work just as well but, from what I read in TFP, they just speed up the filtering process and even the MM instructions say "ProTeam EXO Clarifier may help speed the recovery of cloudy water."

I've had good results in the past by putting 1/2 cup of DE into my skimmer and I tried it with the MM cloud yesterday. It does remove the "chalk" but, as before, the sand filter holds far less matter and requires frequent backwashing (about 50 gal. minimum per DE-backwash), which is hard to accept on a limited spring water supply that has to also feed a household and a garden and trees during this very dry summer.

Alternatively, the Aquabot's filter bag allegedly filters down to 2 micron so maybe I'll try cutting way back on running my 1.8kW pool pump after the 48 hour treatment mark and just run the more efficient Aquabot, which probably moves almost as much water as the pool pump. Plus, the Aquabot sucks the settling white particles right off the floor. Alternating periods of still water to let the particles settle with Aquabot cleaning might also be a good strategy, though I'm sure the Aquabot will stir up any settled sediment fairly readily.
 
TFP doesn’t recommend the frequent or regular use of flocculants, occasional use for a specific purpose is ok. Flocs require vacuuming to waste to remove the settle particulates. You can’t vacuum to filter with a floc as that would defeat the purpose of using it. Also, with vacuuming a floc to waste, you are going to use a lot more water than what is needed to backwash after DE helps to clarify the water. DE is your best alternative to clearing to the water quicker. The Aquabot is likely churning up more water than it is filtering so if it’s not in there cleaning up leaves and/or debris, then it’s probably doing more harm than good.
 
I'm not so sure that vacuuming to waste will use more water than backwashing the DE-spiked filter probably 10 or more times (that's about 500 gallons for full DE backflushes and probably something like 1500 gallons to fully backflush sand-only 10 times)! I went through the advantages with frequent backflushing to clear the algae clouded pool when I rescued it earlier in the summer.

I know that the Aquabot is picking up plenty of white stuff because I wash the bag and it's full of white (and I have to pick it up out of the water upside down or the doors in the bottom of the 'bot don't keep a lot of it from flowing back into the pool). My concern is it will still take forever with the limited capacity of the 'bot, but it would surely waste less water.

The only way the water can make it to the DE is though the skimmer or single drain so it needs to be stirred-up and I don't understand how the 'bot hurts the process of delivering the white particles to the DE-spiked sand filter (which also has a very limited capacity with even 1/2 cup of DE in it). I loads up fast! Maybe the sand alone will filter the white if I use the Drop Out floc to make the particles larger and use the 'bot to stir them up/pick them up when they settle on the bottom too. I'll dump it in, if things don't improve in a few days.

Of course I'm very inexperienced in pools and I'm playing it as I go and greatly value your superior experience and advice.

Thanks for the feedback on flocculants!
 
Metal Magic Stain Treatment Report, Day 9 :sad:

The water is still very cloudy, but I'm making slow progress. I can now make out the deepest (4th) step. In fact, I could make it out very well after a 48 hours particle settling time with the pump off, but the pool bottom and much of the sides then become covered in "snow," which covers the stains, so I don't know if the stains have been reduced at all. Vacuuming it to waste helped, at the cost of somewhat precious spring water, but vacuuming the bottom stirs up the sediment so fast that much of it is sent back into the water column and still remains in the pool.

I'm convinced that the 1 quart of Drop Out flocculant did nothing. The particles are still too small to be caught in my sand filter, unless I add DE and backwash the filter very often. Alternatively, vacuuming to waste after 48 hours of settling works too also uses a lot of water. Unfortunately the sediment settling time is too long so now I have to SLAM my pool too (FC went to zero and CC to 3.5 shortly after the 48 hour period without water circulation).

I'd really like to get this resolved, because I need to close the pool next month. I might buy some Leslie's Alum and try to get the particles to sink quicker or filter better. At least Leslie's is running an end of season sale right now. Alum is still pricey, but many people in the forums report that it works. Small amounts are supposed to help when fed to the filter through the skimmer too (like DE).
 
Just remember that floc has to be vacuumed to waste, you can’t run it through the filter. If it gets trapped in the filter, it tends to plug it up and then, as the floc breaks down again into fine particles, they are then rereleased into the water. Flocculation is not a permanent effect - the floc forms for a short period of time and then starts to break up again. This is why slow vacuuming to waste is critical.
 

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kimkats said:
I have heard the Alum does work very well. I guess it is worth a try.
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Yes--I think I'll order the Alum (aluminum sulfate). Leslie's prescribes 4-12 lbs per 10,000 gallons so, given the severity of my problem, I'll buy two pails (16 lb total) for my 17,500 gal. pool. Today is the last day of the sale and the bill will be $53 shipped. Alternatively, I could order 50 lb of generic aluminum sulfate from this Ebay vendor for $80:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-S...662458?hash=item3f7b2faffa:g:bZcAAOSwL7pa-gej

JoyfulNoise said:
Just remember that floc has to be vacuumed to waste, you can’t run it through the filter. If it gets trapped in the filter, it tends to plug it up and then, as the floc breaks down again into fine particles, they are then rereleased into the water. Flocculation is not a permanent effect - the floc forms for a short period of time and then starts to break up again. This is why slow vacuuming to waste is critical.
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The problem is even the slowest vacuuming to waste seems to immediately stir up more white stuff than it captures. Vacuuming gets only a minority of the white and the rest of it won't settle again for another 48 hours (and without circulation, it then produces poor organic water quality). It's an iterative nightmare of diminishing returns! I'm hoping that the Alum/aluminum sulfate will produce bigger and heavier particles that won't go "poof" into the water column so easily when vacuuming.

Hmm--maybe I'd better order the 50 pounds, given the iterative nature of this approach. Even with heavier particles, I suspect that I'll need to vacuum and re-treat several times. Does anyone know if I need to do anything special with the pH or FC before adding the Alum/aluminum sulfate? I'm SLAMing now but I bet I'll pass the ONCLT after tonight. Per manufacturers' instructions, I had to raise the pH to 7.6+ for both the Drop-Out (aluminum chloride solution) and the metal magic. I've got got the pH back down to 7.5 right now (and actually had to raise it quite a bit after the initial acidic MM treatment, as advised in the MM instructions to "resume normal pool operation after 48 hours").

Thanks so much for your help, kimkats and Joyfulnoise! This is turning out to be a more challenging and difficult effort than cleaning the swamp (of 4 years) when I bought this house and pool. Perhaps unwisely, I decided to try to remove the stains, after getting cocky about how well "dredging" and SLAMing the pool had fixed the swamp! I had crystal clear water until this stain removal effort.
 
I just talked to Kevin with ProTeam tech support. He was very patient in listening to my description of the problem and said the severity of my white cloud is relatively rare but it does happen for a number of pool chemistry reasons that don't really matter one way or the other in terms of getting my pool clear. He's sending me something that should help to speed my cleanup efforts. I'm hopeful that I'll have clear and chemically balanced pool water before closing the pool next month!
 
I can't wait to hear what he had to say and what he is sending! Here is hoping!

I have not read the does and don'ts of using the floc. I am sure the directions are on the bucket. I wonder if you can see in good enough on line to read?

Kim:kim:
 
JoyfulNoise said:
You did not, by chance, add a clarifier or algaecide to the water along with the metal magic sequestrant?
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I had no choice but make this cocktail, 3 times this season.. somehow I beat the rap.
The amount of metal binder I added should have clouded on its own - but I dodged that bullet.

Each pool looked like a cup of coffee, 2 pounds of lithium in 30k gallon fresh fills, about 5 minutes after application.
 
kimkats said:
I can't wait to hear what he had to say and what he is sending! Here is hoping!

I have not read the does and don'ts of using the floc. I am sure the directions are on the bucket. I wonder if you can see in good enough on line to read?

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Good idea, but it's probably on the back of the bucket. :( I've already spent a good chunk of change for MM on this stain removal project so I'm going to wait and try whatever Pro Team sends me next.

JoyfulNoise said:
You did not, by chance, add a clarifier or algaecide to the water along with the metal magic sequestrant?
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No--I've never added any algaecide other than boric acid and a little Borax and the quart of Drop Out aluminum chloride flocculant solution was well after the MM treatment and after the 48 hour MM treatment period. I wasn't terribly worried about the cloud for the first 48 hours and figured it would clear. Only later did I start to get desperate and figured I try the Drop Out floc that was sitting unopened on the shelf in the pool room (though for who knows how long, because the previous owner closed this pool four years ago). Maybe age has something to do with why it didn't do anything. How stable is an aluminum chloride solution?

I used boric acid to get some borates into the water at least a week before the MM (50 ppm borates) and also a little Borax to bump up the pH too. I wanted to get a little extra algae protection with borates, anticipating the low FC levels I knew I'd need for the MM treatment (1 ppm).

BTW, CC was 0.5 ppm or less tonight so I'm hopeful that tomorrow morning's OCLT result will be a pass and I can stop the SLAM required after the 48 hours of still water settling time.

PoolguyinCT said:
I had no choice but make this cocktail, 3 times this season.. somehow I beat the rap.
The amount of metal binder I added should have clouded on its own - but I dodged that bullet.

Each pool looked like a cup of coffee, 2 pounds of lithium in 30k gallon fresh fills, about 5 minutes after application.
Click to expand...

Well...in adding the maximum amount of MM per the sponge test result, I may have increased my odds of getting severe cloudiness, but Kevin at Pro Team says it's still pretty rare and Swampwoman didn't get a cloud with MM.
 
kimkats said:
I have not read the does and don'ts of using the floc.
Click to expand...

i found this about aluminum sulfate. In the "Description" section it says The pH needs to be close to 7 for the alum to form the gel-like substance that will trap the dirt and particles. If the water is so cloudy that only 1” to 2” clarity is available, this might be a better choice than conventional clarifiers.
https://www.aquapure-il.com/Aluminum-Sulfate-Floc-50-lb-Bag.html

Geesh--these chems can have you chasing pH all over the place! MM needs pH on the high end. Otherwise a sponge test-dictated high dose of MM will drive pH way, WAY low during treatment, I think. Then the Drop-Out floc required an even higher pH range than MM required (and 7+ quarts of MM in my pool had dropped the pH to 6.8 or less). If I were to use aluminum sulfate, the above says lowish pH, which would have been great after MM, but I brought the pH back up for the Drop Out!

Oh..and again, Leslie's prescribes 4-12 lbs per 10,000 gallons so that and pH close to 7 is probably a reasonable aluminum sulfate floc treatment recipe.

But it doesn't matter to me right now, because I'm going to try whatever Kevin sends me from Pro Team tech support next and follow their directions. I noticed that Pro Team has several products for clearing water on their website. I think he's sending a clarifier rather than a flocculant.
 
Aluminum flocs (sulfates or polychlorides) are difficult to work with as they have very specific pH requirements. Also, you can “over floc” the water by adding too much and that can cause cloudiness as the floc remains as a fine suspension instead of a dense agglomeration of particulates. This is one of the many reasons TFP cautions against the use of flocculants - they have few upsides and LOTS of downsides.

It sounds to me like your water is essentially clouded by a suspension of fine particulates either caused by the Metal Magic, the flocculant or both. Your sand filter, by itself, is incapable of efficiently filtering this stuff out. The clarifier will hopefully work (they may be sending you their chitosan based clarifier) but DE in the filter will do the same job.

At this point, it doesn’t matter anymore (vacuum to waste or backwash) as you’ll be sending water out of your pool no matter what you use.
 

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