Saltron Mini - How often to open the cover and "let the CCs out"?

[GreenLeaf]

The last thread on the topic of leaving your spa cover off to "let the CCs out" I can find was in 2010:

Leaving Spa Cover off after adding chlorine

How long should I leave the cover off of the spa after adding chlorine to maintain the residual level and how long do I leave it off after shocking? Thanks

www.troublefreepool.com

However there has been other mentions of needing to do this such as this in 2020.

I thought I might ask if there has been any new information on this topic since then. I also just got myself a Saltron Mini and plugged it in for the first time today.

Wondering if I should:

A) Leave the cover off for a period of time, every time after a soak (and how long? Heating is expensive!)
B) Leave the cover off/open for an amount of time every day / rig up an external air blower to vent the cover once a day / rig up the blower to run once a day to pull fresh air in from outside the spa and push the stagnant air under the cover out?

Background: I love my TFP method pool and swim in that with zero issues. Having issues with spa CCs causing itchy eyes, dry skin for days after using the spa unless I shock it and let the sun bring it back to FC0 before using it (ie: if I can smell CCs I guarantee my eyes and skin will be itchy for days afterwards). Hoping the Saltron Mini will help ensure a constant FC base and stop me having to dump the spa every other time I use it. I use Ahh-some/Spa Klenz and am OCD about keeping my spa clean.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

What is “SPA KLENZ” and what does it contain? Can you post a reference to it?

 

[GreenLeaf]

It's the Australian brand name for Ahh-some (correction, "Pipe Klenz" not Spa Klenz). I note it comes in liquid form not gel, though.

 

[Jimrahbe]

GL.

I take the cover off for about 5 minutes before using my spa and then open the cover for 5 or 10 minutes every day that I'm not using the spa.

Keep in mind that it is a spa and you have to replace the water about every 90 days.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Thanks for your advice and personal experience Jim. Water is cheap and plentiful here at the moment, as opposed to electricity and chemicals, but I like to have a spa every other day. It takes 18 hours to heat up, so I'm keen to find a way to keep it hot all the time.

 

[JamesW]

Adding a UV system might be worthwhile to eliminate CCs.

UV destroys chlorine as well so you would want to try to only use it long enough to eliminate the CCs and then turn off.

 

[Ahhsomeguy]

The name Spa Klenz is a private label used by Lo Chlor in Australia and New Zealand. As GreenLeaf states, it is a liquid purge product formulated from our Aqua Clarity Concentrate. We manufacture a special blend of gel for this manufacturer. Spa and Pipe Klenz has been an extremely successful product for them. Lo Chlor Australia is a super company that has been involved in recreational water maintenance for a very long time. Questions for them can be addressed to [email protected].

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Adding a UV system might be worthwhile to eliminate CCs.

UV destroys chlorine as well so you would want to try to only use it long enough to eliminate the CCs and then turn off.

It would be nice to see tub manufacturers added this as an option. An in-line UV lamp in the recirculating plumbing would do good especially if you can schedule it. UV would be very effective right after soaking as it would degrade a lot of bather waste. Then, after the UV runs for an hour or so, the UV source can be turned off and chlorine can be applied to completely oxidize the remaining waste. UV and a peroxide dose would be even better because the hydroxyl radicals created would destroy a lot of bather waste. Then, once all the peroxide is exhausted, chlorine can be added for residual protection. But you wouldn’t want a UV lamp running all the time or very frequently because it will degrade chlorine.

 

[Mdragger88]

I aim to leave mine open for 30 minutes after use but when it’s really cold out i may not make it that long. 15- 30 minutes might cost me a degree of two in the dead of winter but that’s really no big deal. My hot tub may have increased my utility bill by $5 or so, its really not a noticeable difference. I do my best to open it a few minutes every couple days if we haven’t used it (which is rare). I follow the dichlor then bleach method in the sticky & the saltron mini takes care of the standby fc. I still use liquid chlorine or dichlor after long soaks or if it’s more than just me for 30 minutes so I never fall below minimum FC/CYA Levels.
You really don’t want fc to ever go to zero- that would be counter productive forming more cc’s once fc was introduced as what proliferated gets oxidized, perhaps you meant cc?

 

[GreenLeaf]

You really don’t want fc to ever go to zero- that would be counter productive forming more cc’s once fc was introduced as what proliferated gets oxidized, perhaps you meant cc?

I did mean FC. Not using TFP method for spa currently. Currently my method for enjoying a "no itch" spa is:

1. Dump spa then fill up from the tap (water is a bit yellowish out of the tap)
2. Add liquid Cl to SLAM (FC12+, CYA0)
3. Leave the cover on overnight
4. Next morning take the cover off (water is crystal clear at that point) and leave it off until the sun brings FC back to 0
5. Enjoy a spa in transparent, zero smell water with no itchy anything afterwards

After the spa I've been trying to repeat the above from step 2 (fully nuke the water after a session), but it rarely seems to work, usually a hint of smelly sock smell (what I mean when I say I can smell CC), and dry skin / itching afterwards, usually. There is a chance I'm not SLAMing high enough, if 12 is not enough for CYA0, but I've been previously advised to never go above FC3 with CYA0 (different context, but perhaps relevant).

Anyway just wanted to answer your question. I knew I didn't have the time to maintain TFP method in my spa without a SWCG, but now I have the 'Mini I will be doing my best to give it a red hot go.

 

[Jimrahbe]

GL,

I am not sure what you are doing? The Saltron Mini is a SWCG for a saltwater spa. My Spa never smells, so something is wrong somewhere. And never itchy as it is saltwater.

I never 'nuke' anything. I just have the mini set to keep my FC somewhat stable and enjoy the spa.

I don't add anything else. Well, ok, not quite true.. as the water gets close to the 90 day swap out, I might add a little defoamer..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[GreenLeaf]

I apologize for any confusion. I was just answering mdragger's question about whether I meant to say CC or FC.

What I'm trying to do moving forward? Switching to TFP method for my spa (CYA60/steady FC5), using a Saltron Mini. I'm using the water from my pool to ensure all the levels start right with correct CYA/FC/CH/TA/Salt.

I'm sorry if I confused things by explaining what I have been doing in the past, which is not relevant to the future other than explaining why I probably have been getting itchy.

EDIT: Now that I re-read the spa specific TFP notes, CYA30/FC5 is what I'll aim for, thought I'm confused as to why you wouldn't aim for CYA60 as even though the FC needed is higher, due to it being bound to the CYA it isn't as reactive and you can enjoy a larger buffer, but I note the mentions about FC not being as effective at higher CYA. As usual I will defer to TFPs and Chem Geek's experience.

 

[Mdragger88]

What you were doing previously was playing catch up with fc - it doesn’t work.
Is your pool itchy to you? A properly chlorinated spa should not be either. Likely your itchy was a two fold problem - cc’s & 0 cya.
Fc @ target levels is not uncomfortable unless there are other factors at play like no cya, elevated Cc’s or pathogens/contaminants.
Manually dosing the spa is not that big of a deal. You dose initially to target fc for your cya (20-30 is suggested to buffer the harshness of fc) then after each soak you dose high enough that the fc never falls below minimum for your cya until the next use. I recently went on vacay while my swg was on the fritz so I was manually dosing. I raised to slam level for my cya & my tub was still above minimum upon my return 6 days later.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Thanks! Will do all that and report back

 

[JoyfulNoise]

With zero CYA and an FC at 12ppm, you had roughly 6ppm hypochlorous acid (HOCl) in the water. In fact, even at 1ppm FC with zero CYA you would have 0.5ppm HOCl which is about 10X what is needed for bacterial disinfection. It’s no wonder you were itching like crazy. Hypochlorous acid is a powerful oxidizer and a serious irritant. Also, with no CYA in the water, you were favoring the formation of the nastiest form of CCs - nitrogen trichloride. NCl3 is an incredibly smelly and irritating CC compound.

If it’s one take away you need to understand from all of this is - cyanuric acid (CYA) is critically important to water care. It’s not just for UV stabilizing. It also buffers the chlorine and keeps most of it in reserve where it will not cause serious chemical issues.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Thanks! I have never got in the water when I had it at shock levels. I feel my hands dry up just putting them in to get the elbow deep water samples (whether imagined or not). Thanks for the info about NCl3.

Here is my update one week on.

I followed your collective advice as closely as possible, the spa sticky being the go-to. I ended up with CYA30, TA50, CH120, Salt 2700, PH7.4, and CL3. I created a spreadsheet, logged measurements and times, calculated hourly drop rates, etc.

Over the next few days I was by myself, ensured CL stayed about 2.5 at all times by adding Cl manually and later with the help of the Saltron Mini (I'm using an outdoor timer and spreading production evenly through the day). I added acid infrequently to address drift. Having been using the spa every other day for the last few weeks it was a bit hard to feel what was dryness and scratchy skin was left over from before, but I had no itchy skin, no itchy eyes, and rubbing my fingers together didn't make as much "dry skin rubbing together noise". Heaps better! Thanks!

Now the fun starts... I had a few friends over on Monday to celebrate and over the course of 8 hours there were up to 4 people in the spa at any one time. I checked the Cl levels every hour or so, jumping out of the spa, testing the water, adding more Cl to the filter intake and doing by best to keep Cl above 2.5 at all times. It was 3, 4, 5, 3, 2.5, 4 that kind of thing.

In addition to using the Taylor's kit I used a digital strip analyzer (Pool eXact EZ) which has a DPD1&3 test, which I sometimes use to confirm the Taylor's results. I find the eXact helpful to give two digit precision on CCs while the Taylor is very granular with the 0.2 steps. Yes I know to only trust the Taylor's data but the eXact is helpful even just for getting relative changes. I never take it as gospel. CCs I measured around 0.15, 0.17, that kind of thing.

Then I got carried away having a good time, and forgot to test for 1.5 to two hours. When I did, Cl had dropped to 0.4, and either that test or the one after CCs skyrocketed to 0.87. I bumped Cl back up to 5, CCs were only 0.79 after an hour, bumped Cl to 6, wasn't really doing much, and we all got out anyway because it was sunset.

Right as we got out (sunset) we were invaded by a swam of tiny winged flying ants or something who thought the spa water was the promised land and a bunch made the spa the last place they were to visit. Tiny little things but plenty of them.

I closed up the spa for the night, took Cl to 15 and went to sleep, leaving the cover ajar to "let the CCs out".

The next day Cl was 1.5. I noticed all the wings in the spa, cleaned the filters, used a net to get rid of hundreds floating around. I forgot to check CCs. Took Cl up to 15, and every 2 hours during the day bumped it from ~9 up to 15 again.

After 2 days of maintaining SLAM levels of 12+, I didn't seem to be making much progress. Water looking great, smelling ok, but still CCs > 0.6. Last night I took Cl to 12 and turned on the Saltron Mini to 24 and ran it non-stop. At 8 in the morning (even running the Saltron non-stop) Cl had dropped to 9! Sheesh! Taylor's told me CCs was 0.4 and the eXact said 0.47.

So today I have Cl to 15 and the Saltron is running flat stick, the cover ajar.

Sorry for all the detail, but summary and TLDR being:

1. Thanks for all your help and advice!
2. Everything was going well with just me in the equation, keeping Cl above 2.5. Cool. Easy. Yay it works!
3. How long do you think it should take for 0.8 CCs to burn out at SLAM levels? They seem to be taking a while (unless it's some poor ant wings stuck somewhere?). I have learned my lesson - never let the CCs start!
4. I've realized now why you guys say add the Cl *before* you have a bunch of people get in, not after. Point taken.

And then there is the "how to deal with parties" issue. This was a relatively small one, 4 people. Sometimes I might have a big one with sometimes 2 people, sometimes 8 people jumping in and out.

It was pretty inconvenient even as a pool chemistry acolyte having to jump out of the spa every hour or two to test the water.

Loving spas as much as I do, and wanting to enjoy it with friends, get drunk, relax and not stress about testing during a party, what are my options for more bullet-proof solutions I could plumb in to either resolve this for me, or reduce the chlorine demand? A Davey lifeguard (ORP, auto-dose acid and SWCG), a UV system, a Ti MMO hydroxl radical generating device to break up solids, one of these new "AOP" things that combine the last two... ugh... I love my Pool Lab PL45 and ASP / Photometer but you'd run out of re-agents in no time if you tested every 15 minutes. Would an ORP system like the Lifeguard do the job?

It does seem that if you have a party with half a dozen people in and out of the spa, you need to be throwing a lot of chlorine into the spa every hour but ensuring you never add too little or too much. I care for my health and that of my guests, and don't want to muck this up. Any advice here welcome, otherwise it would seem the safer option rather than having everyone breathe in CCs is to just fill it with fresh water before a party and dump it straight after. Thanks!

 

[Mdragger88]

You’re trying to micromanage fc & cc’s a bit much, just raise fc to high target or near slam level for a party then check again later & replenish as necessary. No need to try & skirt minimum all the time.
There’s likely more active chlorine in your drinking/bathing water than in your spa with fc at high target for your cya. I know there is in mine. The sweaty bodies will consume the surplus fc in short order but so long as there’s plenty of fc left the cc’s won’t get too out of hand.
Some cc’s will happen in a spa because bather waste is being oxidized. There’s no way around it unless you purge the spa & then never use it again.
They won’t be too much of an issue when the tub is open & there’s adequate fc. The key is to be proactive, not reactive. Persistent (never goes away) cc’s of 1 or above is a problem but anything .5 or less is fine.
When you raised fc to slam (actually a little above) after the partay you should have probably left the cover completely off a while & most of that would have likely dissipated. I understand the bugs made that impractical. Since fc had fallen so low you were definitely playing catch up & the fc you added was chewing through the organics that had proliferated in that time.
The part you’re missing with the fresh water then dump it idea is person to person transmission of pathogens that occurs without adequate fc. That’s not a party favor anyone wants.
The answer is to dose on the high side & then check fc periodically & add more bleach to ensure you don’t fall below minimum. I have been in my hot tub @ slam level & it was fine, same with the pool (many times). It’s a little rough on the suits (especially with the hotter water) but in a party situation that elevated fc level is very short lived in a spa. It is absolutely safe to swim with fc @ slam level for your cya so don’t be afraid of adequate fc levels. I know you are worried about the effects of cc’s but “you’re feeding the wrong end of the horse” as Jim would say. The way to eliminate cc’s is to raise fc high enough to oxidize what causes them not avoid fc because of the reaction between the two. The organics that cause the cc’s will still be there in the water - growing, at inadequate fc levels. The end result of the low fc situation will cause more cc’s not less.

 

[GreenLeaf]

Thanks for (a) reading my whole long message and (b) your advice! I understand and agree with your sentiment. I have been very scared, too scared apparently, to have elevated Cl levels. Your comment about being reactive rather than proactive is spot on.

I honestly hadn't even considered getting in the spa with SLAM levels so it's very valuable advice for me to know I *can* have people in that high Cl (to start) as a proactive position. I'll report again once I have tried the "pre-loaded Cl" approach.

One last question. I read Cl effectiveness drops as PH gets higher, and I have noted PH increases as Cl is added and drops back down as it is converted to salt. If I pre-load, and considering there appears to be quite a bit of PH drift (I assume from the blower, over the course of a few hours), should I lower PH to 7.2 or 7.1 before adding the Cl in order to help to Cl effectiveness? PH will rise with added Cl (not great for skin, right?) and after a few hours of using the blower PH will be drifting up anyway. If I aim for a "hard minimum of FC3", should I be looking to match that with a lowish PH of 7.2? Considering usually I'll be roaming FC in the range of 4-6 which will bump it up anyway? Second question - how long to wait after adding acid to add any Cl (I've read don't mix the two).

 

[Mdragger88]

With ta @ 50 I wouldn’t lower ph farther than 7.4 - 7.6 or else you may be lowering ta too - don’t wanna get on that roller coaster again.
The deal with ph & chlorine effectiveness involves no cya. With cya in the water the difference is minimal. My spa is often sitting at a ph of 7.8 - the fc is plenty effective. Ph isn’t your problem. Low fc is. Example - I always aim to start my soak with 5-6ppm or so w/ my cya of around 20-30 - especially if it’s more than me. I have a small tub (200+- gal) so the Bather load is a little higher than it would be in a larger tub. After a 45 min- hour soak with me & my husband my fc may fall as low as 2 ppm. When we get out I raise it back up to around 8-10ppm to account for any bather waste & let it air out a bit. The saltron mini handles the standby fc - it’s job is not really to make up for the bather waste for me unless it was just me for a really quick soak.
I always check ph when I first open the tub so things are calm. If it’s 8.0 I go ahead & lower it with acid to 7.6. - if it’s 7.8 I may lower it to 7.6 after using the tub but oftentimes I will just let it ride & maybe check it the next morning to see if it’s still the same/stable.
As my borates lower overtime due to replacing splashout I find that it tends to settle at 7.8 instead of 7.6 regularly.

Don’t over think it-
be sure you always have plenty of fc
(Somewhere between min & slam)
&
that ph is in the 7’s
(when it rises to 8.0 lower to 7.6)
& most importantly- Enjoy your tub

 

[Methuselah]

I'm the new guy who always decries advice to dump the water, especially when reference is made to how cheap it is disregarding heating it again.

HOWEVER, know that it's an option, know it's still RELATIVELY cheap, and know that when trying to recover from a situation or natural disaster (the bugs, the high cc, the bather load equivalence to 200 people in a normal sized swimming pool), dumping and starting over is an option.

You mentioned "yellowish" water. Never heard that, perhaps something that the filters will remove, perhaps something you need a pre-filter to remove, or addition of a clarifier? Odd!

Last note, with party sized bather load I'd probably wash out the filter, maybe before and after "normalization". Thats a huge bather load...

Just my unqualified $.02