Salt or Chlorine--info from builder has me scratching my head

You need some. PB says they will treat to 20ppm at initial fill, but based on what I have learned here, 40-50 would be better here in Texas. Correct me if that is wrong. I just can't guess how long it will take to rise to that level based on the inconsistency of the information so far.

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What model pump did you get? Your pool is very similar in size to mine.


What you will likely experience is this. You're going to start off with 20ppm CYA in the water and lowest setting on your in-line chlorinator. Your FC is going to drop like a brick everyday down to 0ppm. It will drop because of normal chlorine loss to organics and sunlight (2-3ppm loss per day). You will then start to turn up your chlorinator to make the FC delivery rate higher. AT the same time your CYA will begin to increase since you are delivering both FC and CYA. Eventually you'll find a setting on the chlorinator that gets you to your 2-3ppm residual FC level (probably by delivering 6ppm/day of FC). As your CYA builds up and goes past the TFP recommended FC/CYA ratio, algae growth will become more likely. Remember that the TFP FC/CYA levels are based on the concentration of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) that inhibits algae growth. It takes much more hypochlorous acid to inhibit/kill algae than it does other pathogens like bacteria and viruses. As your CYA climbs and algae blooms become possible, you will likely not seen green algae patches but mildly cloudy water. THAT is the start of an algae bloom and most people don't realize it. You will also notice and sizable jump in FC consumption rate. The old setting no longer delivers the FC needed to keep up. The solution most people go for is...tada....turn up the chlorinator. That then starts to deliver more FC but also more CYA exacerbating the problem. Finally, after weeks of cloudy water, the pool goes green and the pool stores start recommended all sorts of extreme measures (dichlor shock, cal-hypo shock, algaecides, clarifiers, etc).

It happens..... ALL. THE. TIME.

So, now that you know and now that you have your test kit, you can do the experiments yourself and see how quickly your CYA rises. Just remember that the TFP FC/CYA ratios are based on the science of chlorine disinfection. Going lower than the recommended levels will eventually lead to trouble. See how long the chlorinator can go for before you have to violate the FC/CYA ratio.
 
By the way, you had asked for actual experiences with UV, so what about the following?

Recurring Green Algae after Slamming and Passing OCLT

I'm looking for some input as to why algae keeps reappearing after Slamming and successfully completing OCLT.
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The water is crystal clear but green areas keep appearing on the floor and benches after about a week of completing the SLAMMING process and OCLT.
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I have a UV light that I thought maybe driving down the CC and giving me a false positive on the OCLT. However, I disconnected it on Sunday (6/21) of this week and I have not seen an increase in the CC over the last 5 days. I have not SLAMMED the pool since disconnecting the UV light because I wanted to see if the CC would increase without the presence of the UV light. Any input or ideas is much appreciated.

So not only was this person getting algae in their pool in spite of having a UV system, but they did not see that shutting off the UV system resulted in any rise in CC. The UV system was supposed to keep down CC, but as we explained in an outdoor residential pool the UV from sunlight is enough to handle bather waste that would otherwise be slow to oxidize by chlorine (e.g. urea) and also reduces CC directly (e.g. dichloramine).

That's an interesting point you make @tim5055. Since I disabled the UV light this week I noticed a significant decrease in the amount of chlorine I have been adding to maintain a 3-7 ppm FC range.

Note that they found the OPPOSITE of the claims from UV manufacturers. They actually found that the UV system INCREASED their chlorine demand. This was probably a fairly powerful UV system.

UV system, recall and options - what to do

This person had a recall of their UV, took out the system, and since then (from later threads) the pool did not have problems nor were there noticeable differences.

I really don't understand what is so conceptually difficult about the fact that UV and ozone systems only deal with water that gets circulated and that for any pathogens or algae that does not get circulated, such as those on walls, floors, steps, etc. that they are only prevented in their growth by the residual disinfectant in the water, namely chlorine. Their growth, especially for algae, can be inhibited by other means including algaecides of phosphate removers, but these are not necessary if one maintains the proper FC/CYA ratio. Of course, if one wants a lower ratio to have lower chlorine levels and lower chlorine usage, one can certainly do that by using the supplemental products to prevent algae growth.
 
I've never heard or said that a UV sanitizer prevents the breakdown of chlorine from the sun, only that it (UV-C) does not breakdown chlorine like the sun (UV-A) does.

But that is complete and total B.S. and I linked to the actual peer-reviewed scientific paper in a respected journal showing the actual UV absorption spectrum for hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion that shows that they DO absorb and break down in UV-C, not just UV-A. In my previous post I link to a user who reported lower chlorine demand after turning off their UV system. Now only a powerful UV system will show up the higher chlorine demand in a pool, but the claim that it lowers demand would only be true IF chlorine were on the edge killing free-floating algae and that the UV system helped with that (which it does, but only when the FC/CYA level is too low such that there is actual algae to kill). It still does not do anything for algae or pathogens stuck to pool surfaces that do not get circulated.

See The Use of UV For Dechlorination which is a link to an industry website which of course we detest doing, but since scientific peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals are not enough, you can look at this link instead, though of course it is completely opposite to what other industry links will say depending on what the UV manufacturer is trying to sell!

Between the wavelengths 180 nm to 400 nm UV light produces photochemical reactions which dissociate free chlorine to form hydrochloric acid.
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The usual dose for removal of free chlorine is 15 to 30 times higher than the normal disinfection dose.

Note that though the dose for removal of free chlorine is much higher than the normal disinfection dose, that this is to remove the chlorine IN ONE PASS. In a residential pool, if the UV system is sized for disinfection only, then you might get 5-10% higher chlorine demand which probably isn't noticeable. It's if you get a larger UV system that the increase in chlorine demand can be seen. The point is that the UV people who claim that UV-C doesn't break down chlorine are lying. What is true is that a properly sized UV system set only for supplemental disinfection will have SOME increase in chlorine demand that is not generally high enough to notice.

I was told by one PB (very early on in the process before doing my own research and learning) that with a UV sanitizer, .5ppm chlorine level is all that is needed. That seemed low to me and now I know that FC level depends on CYA level, so that particular PB either didn't understand or was giving me a sales job. The current PB only says it will lower your overall chlorine use because the UV system will do much of the sanitizing that chlorine does.

It takes algae 3-8 hours to double in population under ideal conditions, but it only takes bacteria 15-60 minutes to do so. In one turnover of water, typically 3-6 hours in a residential pool, only 63% of the water gets circulated (some gets circulated more than once, but 37% doesn't get circulated at all). So bacteria can grow faster than UV can kill it even if one ignores pathogens stuck to pool surfaces. Of course, it takes a very low level of chlorine to kill bacteria and also they are NOT a major source of chlorine demand in pools. ALGAE is why higher chlorine levels are needed unless supplemental algaecide or phosphate remover is used. Furthermore, in a pool with sufficient FC/CYA level, there is virtually no chlorine usage for killing algae because algae is killed BEFORE it can reproduce so the only demand is from blown-in new algae spores which are minimal. The majority of chlorine loss each day in an outdoor uncovered pool exposed to the sun is from breakdown from the UV in sunlight. Obviously, the UV system doesn't do anything to reduce this unless you are able to lower your FC/CYA level.

As far as the algae, do you think that having the infloor cleaning system which "brushes" the sides and bottom with a power waterjet every day aids in keeping the algae suspended so the UV system can kill the algae effectively?

That might help as would regular brushing (daily, not just weekly), but why have all these extra systems and work just to try and "help" a UV system when chlorine alone will prevent algae growth if at the proper FC/CYA level? If you really want to have a lower FC/CYA level, you can do that by using supplemental products (at extra cost) that prevent algae growth -- algaecides or phosphate removers though given the good reports of pools in your area presumably using lower FC/CYA levels, your water may be naturally low in phosphates. If you really want to use Trichlor tabs, then to prevent faster CYA buildup, you need to operate at a lower FC/CYA level. That's fine, but again need to prevent algae growth. UV and ozone systems can help SOME with that because SOME algae is free-floating and gets circulated, but not all algae types do that.
 
Over time if the UV bulb does not burn out, it does become ineffective and should be replaced anyway. Also, if the quartz chamber becomes dirty, then the UV system becomes ineffective. Those are things to watch out for and understand and could help explain the experiences you mentioned.

I personally do understand that the UV will only treat the water that passes though it that I must maintain an acceptable FC level in the pool in spite of the UV system. I still see zero downside to having "layers" or secondary systems, especially ones that are so cheap to install and operate.
 
I personally do understand that the UV will only treat the water that passes though it that I must maintain an acceptable FC level in the pool in spite of the UV system. I still see zero downside to having "layers" or secondary systems, especially ones that are so cheap to install and operate.

TFP is about promoting facts and science over speculation and anecdote (which is what drives most of the pool industry). TFP is also about teaching people what works and what works most effectively. A 25-W UV-C light bulb is not going to add a whole lot of kill power to a pool. The energies involved are small when compared to the chemical energies involved with chlorine oxidation of organics and biologicals. It's like spitting into Niagara Falls, sure you're adding water, but not a whole lot and nothing that will change the course of the falls.

You seem like a person who understands the concepts behind TFP in general and UV in particular. Sadly, many people do not.

So, TFP tries to minimize and downplay these "magic" alternatives because they are simply ineffective and can lead others less diligent than you to a false sense of security about the cleanliness of their water. As you can see from the threads cited, many people think there's a tangible benefit to UV when, in fact, it provides very little extra protection to your water.


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But that is complete and total B.S. and I linked to the actual peer-reviewed scientific paper in a respected journal showing the actual UV absorption spectrum for hypochlorous acid and hypochlorite ion that shows that they DO absorb and break down in UV-C, not just UV-A. In my previous post I link to a user who reported lower chlorine demand after turning off their UV system. Now only a powerful UV system will show up the higher chlorine demand in a pool, but the claim that it lowers demand would only be true IF chlorine were on the edge killing free-floating algae and that the UV system helped with that (which it does, but only when the FC/CYA level is too low such that there is actual algae to kill). It still does not do anything for algae or pathogens stuck to pool surfaces that do not get circulated..

And I understand that at .5ppm FC level, PH of 0 and an UV system powerful enough to reduce a horse to ashes in .02 seconds, you can measure some destruction of chlorine. I really don't think that applies to residential UV systems on any measurable level.
 
Over time if the UV bulb does not burn out, it does become ineffective and should be replaced anyway. Also, if the quartz chamber becomes dirty, then the UV system becomes ineffective. Those are things to watch out for and understand and could help explain the experiences you mentioned.

The algae in the reported experience was not free-floating, the kind that causes dull/cloudy pool water, but was "on the floor and benches" so making the assumption that the UV system was not properly maintained so was ineffective is an assumption that is not needed to explain the report. Algae on surfaces is not circulated to the UV system; whether it is working or not is irrelevant.

I still see zero downside to having "layers" or secondary systems, especially ones that are so cheap to install and operate.

If it's not oversized (which would lead to increased chlorine demand as one user reported), then there is no downside other than cost and maintenance of it. It's when all of these other aspects of allowing a lower chlorine level to be used or reducing chlorine demand without such a lower chlorine (FC/CYA) level or preventing algae growth regardless of algae nutrient level are discussed that our flags go up and we want to make sure you understand the truth. It sounds like you now do.

So are you going to be following the Chlorine / CYA Chart and use primarily chlorinating liquid or bleach or are you going to use Trichlor pucks/tabs and not worry about CYA and either use an algaecide or monitor and control your phosphate level or are you just going to wing it and see what happens?
 
Thank you. Good information here on the CYA as it relates to pucks. I don't plan to find out as I will install my Stenner as soon as the PB is done. Good thread here though. I am sure the info on UV is good but of course way over my head :)
 
So are you going to be following the Chlorine / CYA Chart and use primarily chlorinating liquid or bleach or are you going to use Trichlor pucks/tabs and not worry about CYA and either use an algaecide or monitor and control your phosphate level or are you just going to wing it and see what happens?

None of the above. As I stated several times, I'm going to use the inline chlorinator and trichor pucks until my CYA reaches the desired level, then switch to a stenner pump/liquid chlorine system to maintain FC at the proper level and I will have the UV system and professionally installed inline chlorinator as secondary and backup systems. And it cost me virtually nothing in the grand scheme of the total project.

"I really don't understand what is so conceptually difficult about" understanding that? Your words, not mine. ;) If, because of the UV system my chlorine consumption is lowered as the PB claims because the UV system is doing some of the work that the chlorine would normally do, great! If not, still ZERO downside and I know the UV is at least helping to protect against those things chlorine cannot protect against.
 
Got it. Keep us posted with what you find regarding chlorine usage and CYA buildup. According to the Austin 2nd Quarter 2015 Water Quality Report, phosphates are added to the tap water which is why the "raw" values are 0.04 to 0.10 ppm (40 to 100 ppb) while the "tap" values are 0.75 to 0.93 ppm (750 to 930 ppb). (See also this link for "liquid phosphate for the Austin Water Utility to treat drinking water at the treatment plants".) With evaporation and refill I'd expect phosphate levels to climb over time though you won't be testing for those (unless you get a separate test kit for it).
 

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Like for old iron pipes I assume? Does that bind with the metal or make the water less corrosive somehow?


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Tends to form orthophosphate coatings on the interior of pipes to cut down on metal leaching like copper and lead. Old municipal cast iron piping used to use lead solders in their joints but that's been mostly replaced with copper piping that uses silver-tin solders. The phosphates cut down on surface corrosion of the pipes.


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What can you tell from this report? I don't see phosphates listed.... https://customercare.georgetown.org/files/2015/04/CTSUD-Annual-Water-Quality-Report-2014.pdf We are outside Austin on Chisholm Trail SUD water.

Sorry, I assumed you were on the main Austin system. I don't see anything mentioning the use of orthophosphates for corrosion control, but unfortunately in this shortened consumer version of a water quality report they don't list phosphates so we don't know for sure. So maybe they aren't adding any phosphates to the water. That would make more sense if the pools in your area aren't getting algae in spite of not using algaecides or phosphate removers and using Trichlor only and not monitoring the FC/CYA levels. So you may be lucky.
 
Tends to form orthophosphate coatings on the interior of pipes to cut down on metal leaching like copper and lead. Old municipal cast iron piping used to use lead solders in their joints but that's been mostly replaced with copper piping that uses silver-tin solders. The phosphates cut down on surface corrosion of the pipes.

This document at the EPA gives an extreme example where rather high orthophosphate levels of 3 mg/L (3 ppm or 3000 ppb) were used for corrosion control in higher DIC water. DIC is dissolved inorganic carbon, what we know as bicarbonate or mostly total alkalinity, TA. Most water utilities using orthophosphate use 300 to 1000 ppb -- my water utility uses 300-500 ppb, for example. Not all utilities use orthophosphate which is part of the reason why different areas of the country have different amounts of algae problems in pools not maintained at the proper FC/CYA ratio.
 
Like for old iron pipes I assume? Does that bind with the metal or make the water less corrosive somehow?


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Tends to form orthophosphate coatings on the interior of pipes to cut down on metal leaching like copper and lead. Old municipal cast iron piping used to use lead solders in their joints but that's been mostly replaced with copper piping that uses silver-tin solders. The phosphates cut down on surface corrosion of the pipes.


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Sorry, I assumed you were on the main Austin system. I don't see anything mentioning the use of orthophosphates for corrosion control, but unfortunately in this shortened consumer version of a water quality report they don't list phosphates so we don't know for sure. So maybe they aren't adding any phosphates to the water. That would make more sense if the pools in your area aren't getting algae in spite of not using algaecides or phosphate removers and using Trichlor only and not monitoring the FC/CYA levels. So you may be lucky.

I know that 8yr old pool that has been using Trichlor and doesn't know about/monitor CYA has got to have very high CYA and still only keeping their FC at 2-3ppm. Yet the pool looked as beautiful and sparkly as all the others. I figured the UV played a large role in the reason, but it may just be luck as you said due to low/no phosphates.
 
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