I'm sorry, but is your comment directed at me? I'm not a genius and probably ask stupid questions now and then, but I thought this site offered help, not condemnation.
Running out of options to restore plaster color
- Thread starter xtexan86
- Start date
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
Most of the established pool resurfacing/plastering companies provide prospective customers plaster samples of the colors to allow the pool owner to make comparisons before committing. I’m curious if you were provided a sample of your color…or if you can obtain one. It could prove useful for a variety of reasons.
Not many pool contractors in my area so only got 3 plaster bids and just one had "swatches", but those were more of a rubber-like material not concrete. Did go to an NPT showroom but no samples to take home there either. Decision narrowed down to 2 colors (see attached), so chose the darker shade. Compared to my profile pic, color did turn out very close to photo. Got reference today for someone that can power-sand the pool from the plaster guy. He plans to stop by in the next week or two to look. Hopefully if his quote is low enough, I may get maintenance guy to cover it because damage does appear topical; but both him and plaster guy can argue neither was at fault. Will just have to hope for the best solution.
I will try to condense all the above issues and discussion.
The main question with this pool is what caused the two different types of discoloration.
1. One situation is a dark spot (that strongly suggests that acid or a Trichlor floater "etched" the surface in that location. The effect of acid dissolves and removes a top thin layer of plaster and expose the original plaster color (blue/grey) that hasn't been affected yet by anything else. Acid also causes a rough sandpaper like finish.
2. The other situation is that the blue color of the plaster appears to be changing or disappearing and turning to a predominent grey. It is very common to mix both a grey and blue color pigment for a special color appearance for pool plaster. Whenever the blue color disappears and leaves the grey unaffected, it is often because the blue pigment is not colorfast and therefore has been bleached out by either chlorine or sunlight. The grey color remains because it is has colorfast quality. And the plaster remains very smooth because no etching (from acid) has taken place.
3. A simple test can be done with acid to show what happens to the plaster and its' color. Just squirt some acid directly on the top step and watch the plaster fizz somewhat and the blue/grey color stays the same or becomes darker or more intense. A continual application of acid on the plaster will start to show the etching and sandpaper effect caused by too much acid being added.
4. Unfortunately, a similar test with liquid chlorine isn't likely going to show an immediately effect. That test requires some time. You could lower the water level of the pool to below the top step. Then sand a large portion of the step to expose unaffected plaster (and color), then pour some liquid chlorine on one half of the small area and not on to the other sanded area and wait a few days to see the results.
5. With regards to the suggested detrimental effects of using hard tap water to mix pool plaster, that is nonsense. Hard tap water generally only contains about 500 ppm to 1000 ppm of calcium. That isn't very much in reality. However, if the plaster company adds 2 percent or more of calcium chloride (as an hardening accelerator), that would be adding roughly 40,000 ppm of calcium to the mix water, and also a lot of chloride that can leach out of the plaster. Yes, that could cause a white efflorescence developing on the plaster surface.
6. While it may be interesting to know the current water test results, the reality in this case, is that much can be determined without knowing that as discussed above. I suggest looking closely and touching the plaster in the pool to determine if the entire plaster surface has been etched and is rough to the touch. Also note if there is any rough calcium scale on the surface. Also, ask the plasterer what was done to remedy the dark spot caused by the acid. That will help with this situation.
I hope this helps.
The main question with this pool is what caused the two different types of discoloration.
1. One situation is a dark spot (that strongly suggests that acid or a Trichlor floater "etched" the surface in that location. The effect of acid dissolves and removes a top thin layer of plaster and expose the original plaster color (blue/grey) that hasn't been affected yet by anything else. Acid also causes a rough sandpaper like finish.
2. The other situation is that the blue color of the plaster appears to be changing or disappearing and turning to a predominent grey. It is very common to mix both a grey and blue color pigment for a special color appearance for pool plaster. Whenever the blue color disappears and leaves the grey unaffected, it is often because the blue pigment is not colorfast and therefore has been bleached out by either chlorine or sunlight. The grey color remains because it is has colorfast quality. And the plaster remains very smooth because no etching (from acid) has taken place.
3. A simple test can be done with acid to show what happens to the plaster and its' color. Just squirt some acid directly on the top step and watch the plaster fizz somewhat and the blue/grey color stays the same or becomes darker or more intense. A continual application of acid on the plaster will start to show the etching and sandpaper effect caused by too much acid being added.
4. Unfortunately, a similar test with liquid chlorine isn't likely going to show an immediately effect. That test requires some time. You could lower the water level of the pool to below the top step. Then sand a large portion of the step to expose unaffected plaster (and color), then pour some liquid chlorine on one half of the small area and not on to the other sanded area and wait a few days to see the results.
5. With regards to the suggested detrimental effects of using hard tap water to mix pool plaster, that is nonsense. Hard tap water generally only contains about 500 ppm to 1000 ppm of calcium. That isn't very much in reality. However, if the plaster company adds 2 percent or more of calcium chloride (as an hardening accelerator), that would be adding roughly 40,000 ppm of calcium to the mix water, and also a lot of chloride that can leach out of the plaster. Yes, that could cause a white efflorescence developing on the plaster surface.
6. While it may be interesting to know the current water test results, the reality in this case, is that much can be determined without knowing that as discussed above. I suggest looking closely and touching the plaster in the pool to determine if the entire plaster surface has been etched and is rough to the touch. Also note if there is any rough calcium scale on the surface. Also, ask the plasterer what was done to remedy the dark spot caused by the acid. That will help with this situation.
I hope this helps.
Hi, the first small stain was caused by a chlorine dispenser stuck on the front step. It was fixed and taken care of by the technician supervisor back in May. The stain does appear to show though, how the chlorine can bleach the blue pigment out.
You said something earlier...."On the other hand, if the problem was caused by very aggressive water, due to acid additions, then that causes the plaster to become etched, and later, porous." By "porous", does this mean the plaster surface can become pitted with very small craters? Although it's hard to see in the close up picture of the scraped spot under the tile, my plaster (still pretty smooth to the touch) is covered in these so not sure if this a normal surface condition after curing or not. But your statement got me thinking. IF the acid etched the plaster and caused it to become much more porous, then would the chlorine have a stronger effect on the blue pigment? I don't completely understand this, but the plaster guy keeps referring to a "cream" layer that's on top of the plaster. Apparently, when that layer comes off, more of the aggregate is exposed and makes the color appear darker. This is exactly what happened after the acid dump...it looked like I had black mold under the tile line but it was just the black aggregate showing. I remember thinking at the time that was really odd and of course that's when I really started to notice the color change. If the cream layer has been diminished, then again, does this create an easier way for the chlorine to leach into the plaster and bleach the blue pigment?
So, got a water sample test done today. Free and Total Chlorine is 0; pH is 8.4; Total A is 100 ppm; Calcium hardness is 339 ppm; Cyanuric acid is 150 ppm (so very high), Iron, Copper, Phosphates is 0; TDS is 1000 ppm. Technician supervisor is aware of this. He told the service guy to keep pH on the higher side and chlorine low (as we're moving into Fall) and (this is guessing) but maybe the acid is a bit high is because it doesn't have much chlorine to act on? Anyway, he's coming by in a day or two. Also, the power-sander guy came out this morning to look at pool. He plans to power-sand, acid wash and then power spray. He's not sure what exact color will end up being revealed but says it should be very close to what the original plaster was. His cost estimate is $1100.
No, my comment was to the quoted material saying in essence that the plaster guys better use soft water in the mix or........
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FWIW, Leslie’s (and most other pool stores) is kinda notorious for providing unreliable water test results. Then the bad results lead customers to add things that damage the pool or waste a lot of money. The pool maintenance companies aren’t much better if you believe the reports/articles around here which reveal that your bad experience isn’t unique. That’s all the comments are intended to convey, not that you’re at fault for anything.
But the warning is that no one cares about your pool more than you do and stuff like this is likely to keep happening over time if someone other than you is caring for the pool. So just be aware of that.
When folks here say they need to use a pool tech guy for the pool we always suggest at least having a GOOD test kit so that the owner can test the water and follow up to be aware of the water quality. They should be aware of what the various chem levels are best for their pool.
Too many owners come here after a pool service has damaged the pool's water, equipment or finish and ask us how it should be handled.
Too many owners come here after a pool service has damaged the pool's water, equipment or finish and ask us how it should be handled.
Ok, thanks. From a newbee's perspective, this is just another frustrating obstacle that deters me from wanting to understand this stuff. When the manufacturer is stipulating your plaster needs soft water and you have hard, then trying to blame them for a defective batch of plaster or premature color fading probably isn't going to fly especially in a court case.
Definitely not disagreeing with you, and it's been a learning experience...just not the one I thought I would eventually tackle. I'm always wary of anything Leslie's suggests and try to do some research before I need something from them, but at some point when you just don't know you have to trust someone else's opinion.
- Jul 21, 2013
- 65,181
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
A manufactures statements would not be viewed as unbiased or independent or even coming from an expert in a court case.
A court case would bring in an unbiased expert like @onBalance
Well, lesson learned after this incident. Plan to do more personal monitoring since I've gained a better understanding of how chemicals affect a pool's maintenance. But I wouldn't blame someone for hiring a service tech when they don't feel comfortable doing maintenance themselves. Coming here for answers or advice shouldn't be discouraged either, no matter what skill or experience level a pool owner is at.
The only way a chlorine floater can "bleach" colored plaster is if the color pigment is non-colorfast. The other thing that chlorine floaters can do is "etch" the plaster. And etching doesn't cause color loss. My question is how did the supervisor fix that spot? Did he use sandpaper to remove the dark spot, or something else?
A porous surface is usually not rough and pitted by touch. An "etched" surface is rough and pitted. Also, severe etching can cause the quartz aggregate to "fall out" and create small craters.
An etched or porous surface is not more prone to bleaching by chlorine, and color loss will occur the same as with a smooth surface. It is a colorfast issue. An etched surface usually keeps the same color or even darker, but a porous surface will usually take on a lighter (blue/grey) color. Also, look closely at a dark (black) spot and see there is a blue color in between the black quartz aggregate. That can help to determine what has occurred.
Generally plasterers will wash off the cream layer prior to filling a new pool to expose more aggregate. Find out if that took place. But yes, removing the cream layer, either by acid or sanding, will expose and generate a darker color, not lighter, and not where the blue disappears and leaving the grey intact.
Power-sanding should be done first, and then perhaps a power spray if needed. But no acid washing. Acid washing just etches the surface. Power sanding will create a smooth dense surface and good color. Think about this, isn't the plasterer blaming the extra acid as causing the discoloration problem in the first place? So, why perform an acid wash? Yes, that is nonsense.
What I am leading to is that the dark or black spot probably was caused by the acid and also the chlorine floater. But that issue is separate from the plaster that is losing the blue color and leaving the grey. That is not an acid caused condition. It is likely that the two different issues are not related to each other. It seems that you thinking that they are connected.
A porous surface is usually not rough and pitted by touch. An "etched" surface is rough and pitted. Also, severe etching can cause the quartz aggregate to "fall out" and create small craters.
An etched or porous surface is not more prone to bleaching by chlorine, and color loss will occur the same as with a smooth surface. It is a colorfast issue. An etched surface usually keeps the same color or even darker, but a porous surface will usually take on a lighter (blue/grey) color. Also, look closely at a dark (black) spot and see there is a blue color in between the black quartz aggregate. That can help to determine what has occurred.
Generally plasterers will wash off the cream layer prior to filling a new pool to expose more aggregate. Find out if that took place. But yes, removing the cream layer, either by acid or sanding, will expose and generate a darker color, not lighter, and not where the blue disappears and leaving the grey intact.
Power-sanding should be done first, and then perhaps a power spray if needed. But no acid washing. Acid washing just etches the surface. Power sanding will create a smooth dense surface and good color. Think about this, isn't the plasterer blaming the extra acid as causing the discoloration problem in the first place? So, why perform an acid wash? Yes, that is nonsense.
What I am leading to is that the dark or black spot probably was caused by the acid and also the chlorine floater. But that issue is separate from the plaster that is losing the blue color and leaving the grey. That is not an acid caused condition. It is likely that the two different issues are not related to each other. It seems that you thinking that they are connected.
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
I too doubt the acid level would cause the color issue. Seems it would require a huge quantity of acid to be reaching acidic ph levels that would have a discoloration impact (for reasons posted) - and with some trepidation about the skill level of your pool boy, I just can’t imagining him going that far astray in adding acid (ie, odd he would deviate so dramatically from his ph adjustment routine).
My opinion draws on my own experience. Prior to a resurface job of my plaster coated pool some years ago, my acid injector dumped a boatload of acid into the pool due to a faulty timer that had the acid pump ramp up the ph to a crazy high level. Must have been over dumping for a week before I caught it. To my relief, there was no color change at all to my bluish pool plaster…and maybe only just slightly rougher. Again, I doubt your pool maintenance guy got anywhere near my crazy high ph levels (ref. “10 x above normal” phrasing probably was nit as bad or high as it sounds).
[Sidebar as to how I addressed the issue: following install of new pebble resurface, put acid injection system (tub/stenner pump feeding into return line) on two timers in series…1st timer powers on for 6 min, and feeds 2nd power set for 3-4 minutes, which in turn, is the timed power source for the stenner pump. Odds of both timers going bad (ie both goijg into constant on mode”) pretty slim. Worse case scenario with defective timer: runs only 6 minutes. Not a perfect failsafe..but better than relying on one timer and ending up with my situatuon].
If you could get a sample, per my earlier post, could probably put an end to who is at fault by taking thwt sample, exposing it to high ph level in a container of water, and observing any color change. If, as I believe, the color would not be altered, you’d end your “he said, she said” problem.
My opinion draws on my own experience. Prior to a resurface job of my plaster coated pool some years ago, my acid injector dumped a boatload of acid into the pool due to a faulty timer that had the acid pump ramp up the ph to a crazy high level. Must have been over dumping for a week before I caught it. To my relief, there was no color change at all to my bluish pool plaster…and maybe only just slightly rougher. Again, I doubt your pool maintenance guy got anywhere near my crazy high ph levels (ref. “10 x above normal” phrasing probably was nit as bad or high as it sounds).
[Sidebar as to how I addressed the issue: following install of new pebble resurface, put acid injection system (tub/stenner pump feeding into return line) on two timers in series…1st timer powers on for 6 min, and feeds 2nd power set for 3-4 minutes, which in turn, is the timed power source for the stenner pump. Odds of both timers going bad (ie both goijg into constant on mode”) pretty slim. Worse case scenario with defective timer: runs only 6 minutes. Not a perfect failsafe..but better than relying on one timer and ending up with my situatuon].
If you could get a sample, per my earlier post, could probably put an end to who is at fault by taking thwt sample, exposing it to high ph level in a container of water, and observing any color change. If, as I believe, the color would not be altered, you’d end your “he said, she said” problem.
Seems my faulty memory is contributing to possible misstatements. You're correct in that the chlorine incident (MUCH different than the acid and I never intended for them to be related to one another) etched the plaster, but did not bleach it. The black "spot" seen in the photo is mostly just exposed black aggregate. The supervisor used a wire brush and likely muriatic acid. The plaster was still very new so it didn't take him long to erase it. Since he'll be back shortly, I will ask him and clarify, but he probably just brushed away calcium(?) which was the cloudy-looking stuff. Plaster guy, at the time, claimed the spot was caused by cyanuric acid from the chlorine tablet and he was correct. I have a closeup pic of the spot taken back then and tomorrow will take another closeup pic of the same area to compare condition of plaster (since this happened almost 1 1/2 months before acid spill).
I'm not positive why both plaster and power-sander guy are recommending acid wash but asked the later why today and he said it was to ensure a uniform color appearance. Until the sanding part is done, hard to tell what the pool will look like, but if it's fine for me I'll see what he thinks about holding off with the acid wash because, yes, I'm not crazy about it either. I've also seen a few YouTube vids on refreshing plaster and they do acid washes too. Either way, he is following up the acid wash with power spraying so wouldn't that remove any excess acid and stop the etching process?
Cream layer, no, I don't believe they washed off the cream layer after plastering. I remember seeing very little exposed aggregate in the early times, mostly some white flecks but hardly any black. Now, I see black exposed aggregate everywhere, especially right under the tile line. Lastly, if the blue pigment used in the DiamondBrite plaster wasn't colorfast, I really don't see how many contractors would be carrying it. My plaster guy is 4th generation and been in the business for 35 years and insists he uses quality product. Obviously, there isn't a clear reason as to what exactly caused the rapid plaster color change but due to it's proximity right after the acid dump, I'm having to believe that's what caused it and maybe had the water chemistry not been so drastically affected, I'd still have a beautiful pool right now.
I respect your opinion and honestly can't swear on a stack of bibles as to what caused the color change but I am leaning to some process instigated by the overload of acid. My pool is under 2,000 gallons and at the time, saw the tech literally pour almost an entire gallon of (acid) liquid into the pool. Should of asked him right then and there why as I'd been present when he'd come before and NEVER seen that much liquid applied. Can only repeat what Leslie's said and when supervisor came only remember him grimacing and saying something to the effect of "yeah, it's high" after doing a test. Said he'd told junior to only apply chemicals in small amounts and preferably diluted in water first. Your incident does seem similar but you said your pH went up...wouldn't acid cause pH to lower? Anyway, your post will remind me to ask supervisor more detailed questions when he comes but kinda doubt we could compare each other's pools because mine is really small. I especially want to ask him again what caused the very large black stain on the shelf underneath one of the water jets after acid spill. I don't think it was just from newly exposed black aggregate but it took an hour of him brushing and applying some liquid before the stain became much less noticeable. And yes, it would be great to have a sample to test on. I did find I had a real closeup pic of the chlorine stain and will go out tomorrow and take another in the same spot for plaster condition comparison since the first happened about 1 1/2 months before the acid dump.
Jaimslaw
LifeTime Supporter
Thanks for pointing out my error in stating ph levels in my pool going crazy high after acid pump failure. Meant to say really low ph level (had “crazy high amounts of acid going into the pool” on my mind when posting). Bright yellow ph test color.
2000 gallons …that is small sized for a gallon to be poured in. Still, my ph was really really low for a long time (week) which I think would have had some impact on color if acid affecting color theory hoods up.
Following with great interest, the fix you are attempting.
2000 gallons …that is small sized for a gallon to be poured in. Still, my ph was really really low for a long time (week) which I think would have had some impact on color if acid affecting color theory hoods up.
Following with great interest, the fix you are attempting.
Spoke to the service supervisor today. Will post highlights soon. In the meantime, a closeup comparison of the plaster showing before (chlorine tablet stain in May) and now. You can see how much black aggregate is now exposed and of course, the absence of much of the blue pigment. One question I did ask the tech guy today, was how to find out if a plaster manufacturer was using colorfast dye or not? He said they keep information like that to themselves as they don't want to open themselves up to accusations, etc. He also mentioned maintenance companies have successfully sued plaster makers but nothing seems to change industry-wise. He added it's only getting harder for service techs to problem-solve pool water issues because plaster manufacturers keep changing ingredients, or their ratios and the fact they don't like to disclose what type of ingredients they do use.
Has anyone had any experience with this product or know someone who has used it? This would be the answer to my problem!
Sider-Proof FF-PR - Roll-On Pool Plaster
Sider-Proof FF-PR - Roll-On Pool Plaster
If it really is a plaster product I assume it will have the same type of susceptibility to bad chemistry as your current plaster, unless your current plaster was just faulty. When my parents had their pool replastered, you can see the dark blue is kinda splotchy. I wonder if that’s just the thing that happens over time.