Replacing pool pump - any recommendations?

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A vacuum release valve is usually plumbed near the solar panels and it is a one way valve that allows air into the plumbing but prevents water from leaving. The purpose of a VRV to allow the panels to self drain so they do not contain water when the pump turns off. This prevents freeze damage in areas like ours where we normally do not close the pool but still has the potential of freezing.

And my interpretation of your last couple posts is that if I do not have a solar control that connects with my pump, then I just set an appropriate RPM during the summer/solar season that would activate the solar. And, on those days that it is overcast/not warm enough to run the solar, it will still run at that RPM just because that is the programmed time. But even if this new motor or variable speed pump runs at a higher RPM even if solar is not on, it will still be more efficient than my single speed.
Click to expand...
Correct.
 
I can't get the quote function to work. I will just insert it myself:
Mark, earlier I had asked "When you say the MaxFlo would produce 53 GPM on the same setup as my pump, what RPM is that at?" You answered "3000 RPM."

I forgot to mention that per this site: https://www.hayward-pool.com/shop/en/pools/EnergyCalculator, when I chose the Hayward Max-Flo VS tab, and input real data regarding my pump such as Size of Pool 20k gal. (the closest choice is either 18k or 20k gal.), Single Speed 0.75, Single Speed Pump Run Time per Day 6 hr, Electrical Rate $0.32 kWh, and Length of Season 12 mo., and then on the picture of the Hayward Max-Flo controller I select the V3, it shows that 3000 RPM runs at 1064 watts. The bar graph shows that my same single speed pump would be running at 1500 watts. So, "When you say the MaxFlo would produce 53 GPM on the same setup as my pump" and that being 3000 RPM, I now have an idea of the energy savings at that speed. One question though, how do you calculate that it would pump 53 GPM when you don't know the head? To tell you the truth, I really don't know how much head there is, I just know that my pump is approx. 20'-25' from the skimmer suction inlet, 5' to the nearest return, and the solar can't be more than 10' up to the roof and 30' across to all the panels.

Also, you state that at 3000 RPM the MaxFlo would have the same setup as my single speed. If I still run the Max-Flo, for example, at 6 hours during daylight hours in the swim season at 3000 RPM so that I pump the water up to the panels, and then I run the pump additional time either before and/or after this at a lower speed, it will have run more hours than what I am running my single speed at over that same time frame. The pool will have been plenty filtered over that 6 hrs if it had been run at 3000 RPM, which you say would produce 53 GPM (it would been turned over once). It would seem pointless to run the Max-Flo more than that even at a lower speed. The non-swim season would be a different story. I would only have to increase RPMs during the 1-2 hr period I have the Polaris pool cleaner run. Thus, I would realize more savings during this non-swim period (late Fall, Winter, early Spring).

BTW, if you click on the link above, it will take you to the first screen of Hayward's Energy Calculator. Unfortunately, to use it one needs to enter his/her email, along w/ pool size. The next screen is the one I talked about above.
 
I use actual test data (APSP/Energy Star) to determine flow rates and for "typical" pool plumbing. The tests were performed on standard plumbing types (Curve-A,B &C). The number I quoted was for Curve-A which is typical for 1.5" plumbing OR 2" plumbing with solar. It is a bit of guess but I have a set of spreadsheets that can be used for a more accurate analysis if the information is available.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/thre...you-lost-your-head?p=6231&viewfull=1#post6231


But you should also read the article in my signature on run time. Turnover is irrelevant and most pools don't benefit much beyond 2 hours for circulation. The rest is just for removing debris which is mostly cosmetic or for solar/heat.
 
If I don't ever upgrade to an advanced automation controller, one advantage that the Hayward Ecostar SP3400VS has over the MaxFlo is that the pump's controller is removable and can be mounted, I think I read, 15' away. That would be nice b/c if either one renders my mechanical dial timer inoperable, being able to wall mount the controller would be convenient as my pool equipment is in a built up equipment box. Each time I want to get into it, I have to lift up the heavy lid to rest it on the wall, which is not a problem for me to lift it but could be for my wife, and then open one side of the equipment box to gain access to the pump/filter area. The pic below shows how the lid is lifted up and (if facing the equipment) the front and left of the pool equipment box are pulled off to the side; these two pieces are hinged together and can be lifted aside. While I am the one that messes with the pool stuff, I have told her and she knows that she needs to be educated on using the equipment.

14944379076_b4fbe25421.jpg


Yes, based on your analysis Mark, it definitely sounds as though the Ecostar may be overkill for my application, but having a pump that can be easily controlled by me, or my wife, is important, and not having to build a new equipment box is appealing. If I went the route of the MaxFlo, I would have to figure out some new equipment box design since we have little kids and want to keep them away from that stuff.

Unfortunately, the controller of the Max-Flo SP2302VS is not removable. At least it is rotatable though. And, yes, this new version of it, as mentioned previously, has a built in timer/clock. Here are the details from this site: http://www.poolcleaningparts.com/ha...pump-updated-version-v2.html?___store=default

Updated Hayward MaxFlo VS (Version 2) v2 Variable Speed Pump.

Hayward MaxFlo VS v2 with the new built‐in time‐clock, setup is even easier as individual start and stop times can be set for each speed. The user interface is now rotatable and the new wiring compartment makes installation quick and reliable.

At 1.5 total horsepower, the ENERGY STAR certified Hayward MaxFlo VS is right‐sized for most medium‐head applications, providing a faster payback compared to more expensive variable speed models. MaxFlo VS is an ideal upgrade for those looking to reduce energy use and save money.

Hayward MaxFlo VS v2 Upgrades:

Built‐in time‐clock makes programming even easier compared to basic countdown timers
2‐way rotatable user interface so it’s always easy to read & operate
New wiring compartment for quick and reliable installations

Hayward MaxFlo VS Version 2 maintains key features such as:

Right‐sized for a faster payback compared to more expensive variable speed models
Permanent magnet motor for improved energy efficiency
Totally enclosed fan cooled (TEFC) motor for added reliability
Drop‐in upgrade for the entire MaxFlo family and Pentair SuperFlo
 
Also, Mark, I was at this site http://www.appliances.energy.ca.gov/Compare.aspx and looking at the Hayward Ecostar SP3400VS against the MaxFlo SP2300 (they don't have the 2302 as an option). I was/am trying to determine what would be the GPM flow rate on a the Ecostar at 3000 RPM using my setup. You had calculated/determined that the MaxFlo would produce 53 GPM, which is what I see from this site under Curve A. (I will plead my ignorance, I don't even know what all these Curves mean, except that one is more efficient than the other. I don't even know why there is a Curve B and C. I am assuming these are Curves based on calculated head. If they are, I would have no idea how one determines which Curve applies to his/her situation). The site shows that on Curve A the Ecostar would produce 71 GPM at 3450 RPM. The only thing I can come up with is that on the Hayward Energy Savings site (which I included earlier in this thread) it shows that the Ecostar would produce approx. 85 GPM at 3000 RPM and 1545 watts. This may not be accurate b/c they are stating that it pumps at 85 GPM when the CA Energy site is showing that it pumps at 71 GPM at 3450 RPM, which is 2005 watts.

I ran some rough calculations re: breakeven pt. using my data and info from the Hayward Energy Savings site. I calculated the breakeven pt. on the MaxFlo at 2 yr. 9 mo. and the Ecostar at 2 yr. 12 mo. To make it easy, I just used two speeds - 1500 RPM and 3000 RPM. I calculated 7 mo. running at 3000 RPM and 5 mo. using 1500 RPM. This was assuming that 1500 RPM would be sufficient in the 5 mo. off season to run the pool cleaner. In reality in the off season, I could program it to only speed up for the 1-2 hr. that the pool cleaner is on and could run it slower after/before that. I used some very rough generalizations on an install in my area at $500, $100 for GFI, $50 for misc. parts, $700 for the MaxFlo, $900 for the Ecostar, $50 extra for whatever Murphy's law will throw in, and less $100 for PG&E credit. This comes to a general install cost on the MaxFlow at $1300 and the Ecostar at $1500. If any of this is even closely accurate, I would infer that their is really no significant difference in the breakeven pt. Thus, the Ecostar may cost more upfront, but the breakeven pt. is slightly longer than the MaxFlo. And, I can rest easy knowing that when and if my wife ever wanted to access the controller, she could do so b/c it could be wall mounted.
 
Just came across this thread from you Mark: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/10162-Pump-Efficiency-Data. That helps a little on explaining what the curves mean.

The other possible limiting factor to all of this, but more so the larger pumps, is finding a replacement that will fit in my pool equipment box/area. There is only so much space due to the flanking grates/gates. But, I guess this is all secondary to finding the best pump for my application.
 
The 2300 data is the same as the 2302 data. They just changed the controller software so the pump wet ends are the same which means the head curves are the same.

The plumbing curve is secondary. If you save more money on Curve-A or C it really doesn't matter much. So knowing your exact plumbing curve, really won't change the economics much. But if you really want to know your plumbing curve, give me the following information.

Filter pressure when clean with your old pump with and without solar

Suction side pipe size (looks to be 2")
 
Tx Mark.

I measured the suction side and I got 2.25" across, which I assume is 2" pipe.

Filter pressure was 9 after I had cleaned the filters 5/14/14. Now reads about 11 psi (22.2% increase). While I unfortunately did not record the clean filter pressure when solar was activated, if I recall correctly, I think it was probably around 18 psi.

Also, here is a more expansive pic of my solar setup. It shows that it is tied into the Intermatic mechanical dial timer on the left. Does this mean that it can be controlled by this dial timer? Whatever the case, when I have it on Auto, it turns on or off independently during pumping.

15366837083_211ede72b5.jpg


Also, I took a picture of this valve. Is this the check valve? What is its purpose? As shown, this line comes from the solar.
15799195520_b806b7ee60.jpg


I think this may be the VRV or at least where it is supposed to be. I remember when I took this picture awhile back, this was where I heard air getting sucked into.
15333816299_7d715d20f0.jpg
 
Without solar, your old pump would produce around 75 GPM and the MaxFlo (3000 RPM) would produce about 76 GPM. With solar and assuming 18 PSI, which seems a little high, the flow rate for your old pump would be about 59 GPM and the MaxFlo would be 55 GPM.

The high head loss on solar could be because of the type of check valve used. From the picture it appears to be the type you get at a home store which has very high head loss. A better check valve would be a Jandy flapper type.

Is there another check valve between the filter and the solar valve?

The check valve in the second pic is to prevent the panels from filling when the solar valve is off. The check valve between the filter and solar valve is to prevent water from flowing backwards through the filter when the pump is shut off.

How many panels do you have and what size are they?

The last picture does show another check valve that they used for the VRV but that is ok since it doesn't carry water.

And yes you would be able to turn on and off the pump with one of the timers. Do you know why you have two timers?
 
By "solar valve," I assume you are referring to the solar actuator valve (something like this: http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Pent...dtype=paid&gclid=COGJs_yEu8ICFQqIfgod2KwAuQ)?

Mark, I read the section on check values at your "Hydraulics 101" thread. Sounds like the Jandy flapper type check valve is the way to go. If that was installed, how significantly would that reduce the head loss since you said that the my current check valves may contribute to head loss?

I do have another check valve between the filter and the solar valve.
15804811840_394de48361.jpg


You stated that the check valve in the 2nd pic is to "prevent the panels from filling when the solar valve is off." I have been meaning to post on this. Lately, I have noticed that even with solar turned to "Off," I hear water draining through the solar panels when the pump turns off. I am not sure what is going on or if this is normal, but I am assuming the check valve is not operating properly and water is getting through to the solar panels. If it is not a bad check valve, could the solar actuator not be fully turning off (even though it shows it is off both on the solar controller and the actuator valve itself)?

I have 6 solar panels that are about 142" x 47.5" each.

The dial timer on left is for the pump, while the one on the rt is for the Polaris. The only models I will be able to turn on/off with the dial timer would be the old Max-Flo (SP2300) and the Superflo, correct? While the new versions of these pumps would bypass the dial timer since they have a built in clock.
 
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Those types of check valves tend to have quite a bit of head loss. How much is hard to say but I think it could be as much as 25% of return loss.

The panels may be filling because the check valves are leaking.

Both new and old Maxflo and Superflo will work with the timer.
 
Tx Mark.

Sounds like when I change the pump, it would probably be wise of me to replace the check valves as well with the type you had recommended.

Sorry Mark, but how can that be that they both would work with the timer? I read about the new MaxFlo (SP2302VS) and it had stated that it uses an internal time clock. Hence, the mechanical dial timer would be bypassed and it would be wired directly. I have not read up as much about the new Pentair SuperFlo, but being as you stated that they both compete with each other I am quite certain that it would be wired directly as well. If it is to be wired directly and has an internal time clock, why would I want to use the mechanical dial timer? Yes, I understand that I had mentioned using the mechanical dial timer is still easy and would allow me to turn the pump on and off easily versus opening up my pool equipment box/area to do so, but being as it is that both pumps would still have the control panel mounted on the pump to select programs, it would not make sense anymore to have to use the mechanical dial timer. Also, if the new versions of these pumps are to be directly wired, to me that would imply that they need the continuous electricity input.

Mark, if you have the time, would you be able to provide me with a gallons per minute analysis with and without solar for the EcoStar?

And finally, did you need the measurements of my solar panels and the amount of panels for the calculations or some purpose?
 
If the second gen pumps have a start timer (I have only confirmed that with the SuperFLo), then you wouldn't "need" to use it with a mechanical timer although you could if you wanted to by just setting the mechanical timer at the same start time as the pump timer. But why would you? My only point was that you could but not that you would need to. The only issue with some of the larger VSs is they alarm if power is cut and need to be reset.

The EcoStar at full speed would produce about 105 GPM without solar and 73 GPM with solar. But because your panels are 288 sq-ft, you technically only need about 30 GPM for the panels. The reason the pressure rise is so high might be because you are forcing much more water through the panels than is necessary. With a VS, you will be able to set the flow rate so that there is only 30-40 GPM going through the panels. For the MaxFlo, this would be 1800-2100 RPM. But this might not be enough flow rate for priming so some trial and error might be necessary.
 
Wow! Again I am in awe at your calculations and analysis. Mark, thanks so much. Now I see what the solar dimensions were needed for.

I assume that I can tell if it is not enough flow for priming by checking to see if the returns are sending water or air/bubbles, correct?
 
Yes but you can also check the pressure. It needs to be high enough at the VRV to keep it closed. So if the VRV is 23' above the pressure gauge, you need at least 10 PSI plus a few extra for head loss. So a good target might be 12-14 PSI.
 
Hey Mark. On your "Hydraulics 101" page, I see the examples of check valves. What is the best company who makes the second one? I have been emailing the pool tech and telling him that along with a pump I was wanting to change out the check valves to the Jandy type. He had mentioned that a valve similar to the second one on your "Hydraulics 101" page would require less pipe to be cut. Similar to this I think:
http://www.amazon.com/Spears-S1720C...&sr=1-1&keywords=true+union+swing+check+valve

He stated that having the unions attached would make it easier to fit in & less cutting. I forgot that the Jandy type would require unions (may be some additional insert pipe too, right?).
 
The Jandy wouldn't necessarily require unions but it would require couplers which don't take up much room. As to other manufacture recommendations, I don't really have any. Jandy makes the best valves and the nice thing about their valves is that you can change out the flapper should it ever fail. Also, the check valves can have outer couplers too so they take up even less space (see below).

BTW, the valve on amazon seems very small from the dimensions which translates to high head loss so you might not be better off.

maxresdefault.jpg
 
Tx Mark.

I have no idea what size Jandy check valve I would need. How do I find an appropriate one in that design that would work/not have as much head loss? I did not think about outer couplers. Good tip.
 
mas985 said:
Without solar, your old pump would produce around 75 GPM and the MaxFlo (3000 RPM) would produce about 76 GPM. With solar and assuming 18 PSI, which seems a little high, the flow rate for your old pump would be about 59 GPM and the MaxFlo would be 55 GPM.

The high head loss on solar could be because of the type of check valve used. From the picture it appears to be the type you get at a home store which has very high head loss. A better check valve would be a Jandy flapper type.

Is there another check valve between the filter and the solar valve?

The check valve in the second pic is to prevent the panels from filling when the solar valve is off. The check valve between the filter and solar valve is to prevent water from flowing backwards through the filter when the pump is shut off.

How many panels do you have and what size are they?

The last picture does show another check valve that they used for the VRV but that is ok since it doesn't carry water.

And yes you would be able to turn on and off the pump with one of the timers. Do you know why you have two timers?
Click to expand...

Mark, I went out to empty my pump strainer basket after this big storm. I believe water can be getting to the panels in one of two ways or both. I think it could be going through the check valve, but I also think the solar actuator or diverter valve is bad. When the pump was on, I felt the pipes going/coming from the roof. There was water going through both. Also, when I took off the lid for the strainer basket, there was more air released then normal. I realized that the solar was draining. So, air was coming from the solar, going through the solar actuator/diverter valve, going through the check valve between my solar actuator and filter, going through the filter, and then coming out the pump to the strainer. So, I think I may need to replace both check valves, the solar actuator, and diverter valve. Input?

Here is a pic of the diverter with the Compool solar actuator connected to it. It shows it is off, but water is still partially going to the solar. Bad diverter or Compool solar actuator?
15385678894_d086251604.jpg


When I had the pump basket lid off, there was a lot of air getting released and coming through as the panels were draining.
15820505560_125dd1365a.jpg
 

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