Replacing pool pump - any recommendations?

[mas985]

One thing I forgot to mention is that you could setup your pump to run with solar but have the solar controller just turn off the pump when the solar demand has been met. After all there is really no reason to run the pump if you have enough heat in the pool.

 

[bbrock]

That solar cover you setup is awesome! Great idea. Now that may actually work for me. Everything else I looked at wouldn't fit the bill. Now knowing about your system and reconsidering our drought, that may work.

Post #36 shows my solar controller: Pentair Compool LX220 Solar Control System. I don't think it has that feature you are talking about.

Post #113 states how I learned about the difference between the Maxflo SP2302VSP and SP2302VSPND. If I went with the SP2302, it would be the SP2302VSP and as a result, even if I wanted to go with an automatic controller that could work with it such as the OnCommand, by not having the SP2302VSPND model, I lose the ability to not have to touch the pump at all. I would have to use the control module on the pump to change pump RPMs, etc., where as the OnCommand would be used/manipulated for the solar. Not worth it to me if it could save me a little $ from having the solar and pump communicate automatically with ea. other.

If I wanted to do it right, then upfront costs would now be the Maxflo SP2302VSPND as well as a controller like the OnCommand. I would have to look at what that would cost me.

Edit:
I called Hayward about the MaxFlo SP2302VSPND model (remember, ND simply means No Display). They confirmed that that would be the model to use with the Prologic, E Command 4, or OnCommand, and which would allow me to have full automation and control of the pump. Problem is, is that the SP2302VSPND is so new that is not even readily available to the masses yet. Apparently, he was saying that I would need to check with the pool shop to see if they could special order it. I asked for costs, and he did not even have that. My thinking is that the cost will be through the roof for this version of the SP2302 at a pool store. I can get the SP2302VSP right now for $650 at http://www.poolcleaningparts.com/hayward-maxflo-vs-sp2302vsp-variable-speed-pump.html w/ no shipping/tax. Maybe the ND would be less b/c it doesn't have the control module.

Edit #2:
Called my local shop, Vally Pool Center. The guy there knows his product a heck of a lot better than any dang Leslie's person I have spoken to. Not to mention, this is where I go to get my 12.5% chlorine as Leslie's doesn't even carry that. Clearly I am biased against Leslie's. Back to discussion at hand. The guy said he will check with his Hayward rep. on Fri. about the ND model and pricing. I shall update you all when I get this info.

He was saying that he recalls leaning that the Ecostar could work to turn on solar by sensing low voltage. He was not sure if it was the Ecostar, but if that is the case, that would be cool. I think I read something about this, but if I recall right, it was on the V-Green motor or EcoTech or something.

 

[mas985]

The ecostar would also require a separate controller for solar. As I said before, none of the pumps control solar without an additional controller.

 

[bbrock]

Following up on my post #142 above, when I reviewed the owner's manual for the MaxFlo SP2302VSP and Ecostar SP3400VSP it doesn't appear that there is any discussion of some low voltage input.

 

[bbrock]

Following up on post #142.

I heard back from the pool store. They could get the Hayward MaxFlo SP2302VSPND but that it would only be about $20 less than the standard model with the display module. Definitely not worth it to go with the version of the MaxFlo that would be approx. $20 less and then have to get an automatic controller so that the pump & solar can communicate.

I am still on the hunt for a competent pool tech to do this install of the pump/check valves per my requests. I am having problems getting a pool tech to call me back or follow through with setting an appt. b/c, I am only assuming, that they question if the MaxFlo will work or they are bothered I will be getting the pump myself elsewhere. Anyhow, so far, there are only 2 more companies that I am in talks with. One I have setup an estimate/appt. for later this week. And the other, we are still talking but now about drain covers. This company, Labella's, is stating that my drain cover will have to be addressed. I have told them that I will be installing an anti-vortex/entrapment cover, but today they stated that that would still not be in compliance with the VGBA. I then told them that the replacement pump will not have a drastically different total HP vs. my current pump. My current Challenger is 3/4 HP w/ a service factor of 1.67 bringing it to 1.25 total HP. The MaxFlo is 1.5 HP with a service factor of 1.0 bringing it to 1.50 total HP. Not too different. We are going to talk again.

I began researching the VGBA. Seems to me that this is only pertinent to public pools, as that is my understanding of what I read. If not, then perhaps Labella's is right. I read this:
If the pool or spa has a single main drain, options include installing a safety vacuum release system (SVRS), a suction limiting vent system, a gravity drainage system, an automatic pump shutoff system, a drain disablement or other systems determined by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to be equally effective in preventing suction entrapment. These types of systems are required in addition to a compliant drain cover whenever a pool or spa has a single main drain system.

Guess just an anti-vortex cover would not be enough. In that one call with the City of Livermore rep I think he was saying that even residential pools need to have a permit for a pump to be installed. In that call, he had mentioned that my main drain could pose a problem. If that is the case, then I assume my options would be:
1. Get permit, replace pump, and improve the single main drain situation.
2. No permit, replace pump, put on anti-vortex cover only.
2. No permit, replace pump, leave single main drain cover as is since the MaxFlow is only 1/4 HP more than existing pump.

The only companies that have even mentioned anything about my main drain cover were Labella's, the pool service company, and Anderson's, a pool construction company. I had the later come by last summer so that I could get an idea of the costs for a pool resurface job (this is on the back burner for now).

Can anyone shed some light on this? How does the VGBA affect residential pool owners with a single main drain/cover?

 

[bbrock]

Forgot to mention, a have read that SVRS models pose problems when running with solar. Can anyone clear the air an inform me if this is true?

If this whole main drain thing is going to be an issue, I know Mark you had stated I could get rid of the main drain, but if I wanted to keep it, could the other option be to install a model that has the SVRS feature? That is if it is not problematic w/ solar. I am not sure how sensitive the SVRS system is, but from my understanding, just some leaves in the strainer basket could be enough to trigger it. Anyone have experience with how sensitive they are/set off?

 

[bbrock]

Residential pool and VGB act

Hi,
I am having trouble understanding how the VGB act affects my residential pool. What began as simply wanting to swap out my single speed pump for a variable speed replacement such as a Hayward MaxFlo or Ecostar, has become a lot more intricate. I have had most pool technicians say I don't need a permit for this project, but 1 other say I need one. Now I am checking my the City, and what has begun as a pump replacement would bring my main drain into question.

I have read some of the VGB act, but am trying to understand its affect on the residential pool owner. My system has a single main drain. If I am reading the VGB act right, I just can't install an anti-vortex/anti-entrapment cover and call it a day, right? Must I also have something such as a SVRS pump or something else as listed on this page (http://www.poolsafely.gov/pool-spa-safety/safety-issues/drain-entrapments/additional-prevention/)

I also have solar and I have read that solar and SVRS system's don't mesh. Is that true?

One day I will have the pool re-surfaced, but that won't be for some time. At that time, I guess I could have the main drain split.

Could anyone help me to make sense of all this?

Tx

 

[JasonLion]

Re: Residential pool and VGB act

The rules for when private pools must meet the new requirements vary a fair bit from state to state. In some states no pool contractor can work on the pool unless the pool complies or the work includes upgrading the drain to meet the standard, in other states it only triggers when you need to draw a building permit, in yet other states the only limitation is that a new pool can't be built unless it complies, and so on. In California it triggers when you need to get a building permit.

To meet the requirements, your best bet is probably to get a pump with an SVRS feature. The SVRS can be finicky sometimes, but should work with your solar system. You also have the option of eliminating the main drain, or changing it into a return, but both are more drastic/restrictive than getting an SVRS.

 

[bbrock]

Re: Residential pool and VGB act

Thanks Jason.

So this requirement couldn't be met just with an anti-vortex/entrapment drain cover? Or, do I need an anti-– vortex/entrapment cover and a SVRS pump?

If I am trying to get as long of a life out of my plaster as possible, it looks like the easiest would be just an SVRS pump vs. splitting the main drain. That is based on if one of these things has to be done with the anti-vortex cover to be in compliance.

Edit:
What are the drawbacks with having a pump with the SVRS system?

 

[bbrock]

Met w/ yet another pool tech. He was telling me that perhaps I ought to consider a 1/2 HP setup b/c I have a simple setup and that a 1/2 HP would most likely suffice, and it would be almost as efficient/cost effective as a VS. I realized I don't know why I have not thought about that option. I know from your tag lines Mark, that you have a 1/2 HP and that works for your setup which has solar on a 2 story hm. He was saying that I could get away going with a single speed if I keep the total HP below 1 HP. What are your opinions on this? Doing this route would still permit the use of the Intermatic mech. timers that I have, which is one good thing at least. If this is a solid option, any particular 1/2 HP single speeds that stand out?

I also had him look at the plumbing. He also questioned the use of a check valve after the filter. So far, he has been the second one to state that it is not needed. I said I would still like it b/c it prevents backflow into the filter, but he said that is really not an issue b/c it is filtered watered if it was going to go back in. He did say though he would install a Jandy there if that is what I wanted.

Also, he was saying that instead of hard 90 degree turns he could install sweep valves/bends that are gradually curved. Doing this he said would reduce a lot of the pressure created by the 90s. Any opinions here?

Tx

 

[bbrock]

Re: Residential pool and VGB act

Have to look at it more, but I saw that the Pentair 340036 SuperFlo High Performance Single Speed Pool Pump, 1/2 Horsepower is well rated. SF of 1.95 means it is 0.975 total HP. The Hayward SP2600X5 Super Pump High Performance 1/2HP Pool Pump is also rated strong, but its SF is 1.2 making its total HP 0.6. There definitely seems like there would be a performance and energy efficiency difference b/w these two.

 

[JasonLion]

You really need to stop listening to every story these builders tell you. Remember, they are trying to sell you something. Correctly explaining technical details does not help them sell you things. They are under strong economic incentives to bend and often break the truth.

Sweep 90s are often better, but they are fractions of a percent of your overall energy usage better at most.

A 1/2 HP pump would work just fine, but it would use more electricity and have a higher total cost of ownership than just about any two speed and most of the variable speeds. Legally, you can install a single speed as long as it is under 1 HP, but why would you want to?

A check valve after the filter is not important with a sand filter, but is important when used with a cartridge filter. It will keep debris from being pushed back out the skimmer.

SVRS is finicky. Various minor suction blockages, for example leaves, or leaving a valve in the wrong position, etc. can all trigger it. You usually then need to manually reset it. In most cases it is only a very occasional/minor annoyance. Now and then it gets to be more of a hassle, triggering over and over, but that is rare.

You have quoted the exact drain requirements above, in what way were they not clear? Yes, you must have the correct kind of drain cover, and yes you must have either a dual drain or one of the listed alternatives. Or, if you can get away with not needing a permit then you can leave it alone, though that would leave your pool unsafe.

 

[bbrock]

Thanks for your help Jason.

It's hard not to know what to believe from these techs since it all sounds plausible. Unfortunately, I can't find a tech that is a TFPer ��But tx for reminding me that not everything these people say is legit.

While I originally thought that a simple anti-entrapment cover would suffice, it was the further reading of the VGB act that made me realize that there needs to be an additional layer protection. If I wanted to add that additional layer now it seems it would have to get handled with an SVRS pump. If I wanted to add it later when I replaster, which could be many years, it could be handled by splitting the drain. The first way brings me in compliance now, but with a pump that I read is problematic with solar &/or pressure side cleaners (even though you stated it should be okay Jason). The second way brings me in compliance, but this could be years out. If I intended to become compliant via the second way, the benefit is that I would not need to deal with a SVRS pump. The downside is that for many years I would be in partial compliance with only an anti-entrapment cover.

I am concerned that a SVRS pump may open up Pandora's box of problems. With solar or a Polaris pressure side cleaner, wouldn't either of those cause a big enough increase in pump pressure to continuously trigger the SVRS function?

 

[mas985]

Re: Residential pool and VGB act

Have to look at it more, but I saw that the Pentair 340036 SuperFlo High Performance Single Speed Pool Pump, 1/2 Horsepower is well rated. SF of 1.95 means it is 0.975 total HP. The Hayward SP2600X5 Super Pump High Performance 1/2HP Pool Pump is also rated strong, but its SF is 1.2 making its total HP 0.6. There definitely seems like there would be a performance and energy efficiency difference b/w these two.

These two pumps are fairly low head pumps and may not have enough lift at enough flow rate for fully priming the panels. To be safe, you will need at least a 1 HP SuperPump or a 3/4 HP SuperFlo. Both have about the same head curve as my pump.


As for the SRVS, this is a simple and cheap solution if you can easily reach the main drain pipe at a fairly low depth:

Suction-limiting vent system—A suction-limiting vent system with a tamper-resistant atmospheric opening, also called an atmospheric vent, is a pipe teed to the suction side of the circulation system on one end and open to the atmosphere on the opposite end. When a blockage occurs at the main drain, air is introduced into the suction line causing the pump to lose prime and relieving the suction forces at the main drain. - See more at: http://www.poolsafely.gov/pool-spa-...s/additional-prevention/#sthash.QrSHzg9s.dpuf

 

[bbrock]

Tx Mark.

Can anyone comment, or does anyone know, if the pump pressure increase from solar or a Polaris pressure side cleaner would be enough to continuously trigger the SVRS function? If so, these seems like it could be a huge PITA.

As for the suction limiting vent system as another alternative vs. a SVRS pump or split main drain, I had read about that Mark at PoolSafely.gov. I really don't understand what it is saying or your response. Would this get accomplished by diving to the bottom of my pool and doing something to the main drain? Or, would it be accomplished by the suction side inlet pipe that goes directly into my pump? I really have no room on my suction side inlet pipe. It literally comes out of the ground and goes up maybe 10" then makes a 90 to the left into my pump.

 

[mas985]

It isn't the pressure that triggers SVRS, it is the reduced flow rate and actually the measured power which triggers SVRS (which is a consequence of the increased pressure). It is hard to know ahead of time if this creates a problem or not but it has been a problem for a few people.

As for the vent, a picture is worth a 1000 words as they say:

 

[mas985]

One more thought is that you could turn the MD into a return for solar. Returning water into the deep end has the same effect as a MD but with the benefit of adding heated water to the bottom.

 

[bbrock]

Looking at the suction limiting system, I don't know how that would be accomplished. I don't know how deep/shallow the MD pipes are. So, I assume the ground is drilled until the MD pipe is reached?

How does one turn the MD into a solar return? That sounds as though that would be quite involved.

Forgot to say, a prior tech had mentioned that the EcoStar could take low voltage signals/input from the solar or booster pump via a wire which would work to tell the Ecostar to ramp up the speed. Anyone heard this? I looked at the owner's manual and it says something about external relay wiring, but this sounds like it is for separate controllers. This guy said he has done this low voltage signal input with other Ecostars and it has worked fine. Anyone know their Ecostar well & if this is a possibility?

Also, we discussed my solar panels previously. I can't recall exactly, but I think Mark u said my panels are 288 sq ft (I will have to look back for that), but if I upgraded my solar and even added 2 or 3 more panels, could the Hayward MaxFlo still work? I haven't ruled it out, but just thought about this when I was looking at my solar the other day.

 

[JasonLion]

For the suction limiting system you would need to do a lot of digging, down to the depth of the main drain at a minimum. The hole doesn't need to be under the pool, it just needs to be close to somewhere the main drain line already runs.

Turning the main drain into a solar return is fairly easy, just some straightforward PVC plumbing at the equipment pad.

The EcoStar does indeed work with third party external speed switching. The switching signal would presumably come from the existing solar controller.

Yes, the MaxFlo will still work even if you add two or three panels to the solar system.

 

[bbrock]

Rt on Jason. Tx.

If the EcoStar could be signaled by the solar to speed up, would it turn down when the solar turns off? Or does the signal only work to increase the EcoStar speed? Would this same concept work with the booster pump?

Even though the EcoStar has this as an added option, do you really think this could be enough to tips the scales in favor of the EcoStar? This is a cool feature, but I'm just not sure it would be all that helpful. Chances are in the summer, from the moment the pump comes on, solar will already be on. If that is the case, then in the summer I am really only going to be running a speed for when solar is on and another for solar & booster pump. If all the filtering I need will be able to be accomplished in 4 hrs as was stated, then anything extra would still occur when solar is on. The only reason I will possibly run it more in the summer would be for extra solar heating, or enhanced water clarity.

That "little" MaxFlo sounds like it is good enough to keep up with the "big guns." Still keeps impressing me.

With more PVC plumbing at the equipment pad, I still don't understand where it would be getting plumbed in to so that it returns to the MD. The only place the return water goes right now is in to one pipe, which then goes to the various return jets in my pool.