Question about winterizing skimmer and return lines

[JPMorgan]

I have a very old pool with just one skimmer and one return line. The main drain line comes into the bottom of the skimmer and then there is just one line from the skimmer to the pump. I would like to know if the process I have been following to winterize my pool lines is adequate. The skimmer line is approximately 60 feet to the pump and the return line is about 45 feet to the pump.

I start by dropping the water level below the skimmer (about 8-10") and below the return line. I then use a winterizing plug to plug the main drain line that comes into the skimmer. I have never tried to blow water out of the main drain line and create an air lock. When my pool was professionally closed years ago I don't ever recall the pool professional doing that either. After the main drain is sealed off, I vacuum water from the skimmer and the skimmer line. I usually go to the pump and blow air through the slimmer line (back toward the skimmer) and vacuum the skimmer again to get as much water out as I can. Then I plug the skimmer line using another winterizing plug. The lines into (from the main drain) and out of the skimmer are now sealed. I do the same process with the return line, i.e., vacuum water out of the line at the pool inlet (inlet is now above water level), blow air into the line by removing the return line at the union on the heater and vacuum again at the inlet to get as much water out as possible. Then I plug the return line using a threaded cap. Finally, I add anti-freeze to both lines at the pump until I see it flow into the skimmer and into the pool. I re-seal those lines and keep adding until the anti-freeze flows back out of each line at the pump. I use about 10 gallons of antifreeze in total. Then, I fill the skimmer about half full with anti-freeze and place a half-full jug of anti-freeze in the skimmer. The the pool is then covered.

I doubt that I get all of the water completely out of the lines with this procedure, but each line has about 5 gallons of anti-freeze in the line when I close. Does that sound like enough protection for a Chicago winter? Any suggestions or recommendations for doing anything different?

Thank you.

 

[Catanzaro]

Does that sound like enough protection for a Chicago winter?

If you are clearing the lines and adding antifreeze, that is a good choice. The main drain just being capped off I would not be comfortable with.

Have you looked at the winter blow thru plugs?

Blow through plug

Blow-Thru Valve Winter Pool Plugs - Various Sizes for the main drain.

They can be placed in the port, and with an air compressor you can move the water below the frost line. The air is automatically trapped in the line. I personally have not tried this, but will attempt in the next day or so as I use the Cyclone for my pool closing.

 

[JPMorgan]

In order to use those plugs, I would have to track down a compressor as I don't have one. I guess I have a little time to figure it out before we get a hard freeze. I might contact a pool company to come out and just do that task. Should be a whole lot cheaper than having a company do the entire close. One final thought..... If I can't get air blown into the main drain would it help to pour a little anti-freeze in there before plugging? Will the anti-freeze go into a line that is full of water or will it just sit on top, i.e., is it lighter or heavier than water? Thank you for the help.

 

[Catanzaro]

If I can't get air blown into the main drain would it help to pour a little anti-freeze in there before plugging? Will the anti-freeze go into a line that is full of water or will it just sit on top, i.e., is it lighter or heavier than water?

Some members use antifreeze in the main drain, but in IMO, not needed. It will be hard to trap air, add antifreeze, start all over again. It can be done if you have a shut off valve, open pump basket lid, add antifreeze, close basket and quickly use air to move water again. The Cyclone is powerful enough to pull this off, but an air compressor will probably struggle to push the liquid down the main drain once you break the seal with the shut off valve as water will come gushing back into the line.

The compressor will work before there is trapped air in the system, but probably not afterwards. The main drain is too far below to be concerned about adding antifreeze.

 

[JPMorgan]

Not sure I'm totally clear about this. What I am going to do is place a winter plug into the opening in the skimmer that comes from the main drain (for the time being). Then, I will vacuum out the skimmer and the skimmer line that goes to the pump, plug that line and add anti-freeze to that line until I get back flow.... then, close the valve on that line that sits right in front of the pump. Then I plan to have a pool company come out, install the "blow through winter valve" (by replacing the winter plug that I installed in the line coming into the skimmer from the main drain) and then blow air through that main drain line. I realize that when the winter plug is removed from the opening that goes to the main drain some water will probably flow into the skimmer, but I can vacuum that out after the air lock in the main drain line is achieved.

Does this make sense? If I have a pool company come out to do this, do you think they would be able to get an air lock in the main drain line. My pool is about 9 - 9.5 feet deep at the deepest point. Thanks again.

 

[Catanzaro]

Does this make sense? If I have a pool company come out to do this, do you think they would be able to get an air lock in the main drain line. My pool is about 9 - 9.5 feet deep at the deepest point. Thanks again.

If a pool company comes out, they will not need your plugs. They have their own equipment for pool closings. If you are not prepared or comfortable with the closing, you may just want to hire the company to do this. Sometimes, we have to hire professionals. I do not believe they will come out for just the main drain either. If they do, the cost may be as much as you going out and purchasing an air compressor. The main drain line really only needs to be winterized below the frost line.

 

[1Sammy]

Add a few feet of foam rope down the main drain line before you plug it. It is a fun job to push it in against the pressure of it trying to float back up. Have the plug handy as you can not take your finger of the foam rope as it will shoot out and up over your head.

 

[JPMorgan]

Can I get foam rope at the hardware store? Also..... would it work the same if I cut a slice from a pool noodle that I could push into the main drain line before plugging? Would that also do the trick to protect that line?

Finally.... ("The main drain line really only needs to be winterized below the frost line.") How far down is the frost line? The bottom of the skimmer is about 20" below the pool deck surface and about 10" below the bottom of the opening to the skimmer.

 

[jimmythegreek]

I would air lock the main drain and get a cheap compressor to do your pool closings. If you ever break a pipe it will be thousands to repair. Also be sure to pull your plugs for your heater and for your filter. you dont want water sitting in either and expanding upon freezing. its easier and safer to just do it the best you can and not have a worry. For the average pool owner, the cost of the equipment to winterize your pool is 1 or 2 times the cost of a pool company doing it. worth every penny to do it right. you can search on here for horror stories of broken pipes

 

[JPMorgan]

Thank you for that advice. Apparently, I have been fortunate because I have never done the air lock to the main drain in the past. I have always just installed a winter plug (leaving the main drain line full of water) and then filled the skimmer with anti-freeze. The good news is I did contact a pool company that I use on occasion and they said they would come out to air lock the main drain. I think I will pay for that to be done this year and watch what they do. Then, maybe next year invest in a compressor.

Will any compressor do? The line from the skimmer to the main drain is about 9-10 feet. Will a "cheap compressor" be able to blow that out?

 

[JPMorgan]

I would air lock the main drain and get a cheap compressor to do your pool closings.[/COLOR]

So.... my son in law has a compressor and I am going to try to blow out the main drain line myself. I believe I have a 1 1/2" port in the skimmer. I noticed there are a couple of different numbers on 1 1/2" blow through valves, i.e., #*, #10, #9.5, etc. Which one will I need? Should I just take my current winter plug (not a "blow through" to the pool store to match it as best i can? Thanks.

 

[Catanzaro]

Look at this thread:

HELP can't blow out main drain


A total of 9 feet requires 108 " of sealed pressure. Most main drains are 8' deep. The air compressor will most like push the water below only below the frost line, and nothing else as I have experimented with the blow-thru plugs (little bit of bubbling) and the Cyclone (An animal within itself).

 

[JPMorgan]

Okay..... one other thought.... I just realized I have a Black and Decker air station. It is an air pump that allows me to set the desired "tire pressure" when I am filling a bike or car tire and it will shut off when it reaches that pressure. It would be easy to hook up to the blow through valve, set the appropriate air pressure on the unit and let it run. It has a quick connect valve on the end, so when I remove the pump from the valve stem on the blow thru winter plug it will seal quickly and not allow water back into the pipe.

Questions:

Do you think this pump would be able to do the job, i.e., move the water down through that main drain and air lock the line at least a few feet below the port in the skimmer?
If so, what setting should I use for the desired pressure?
Finally, the main drain line does not have to be completely water free, correct? If I can push the water down even a few feet into that main drain pipe that should help protect the line, right? The opening in the skimmer (which comes from the main drain) sits about 20" below the pool deck surface and I would try to push the water down another couple feet (maybe more..... who knows) and then air lock the line. Would that give me enough protection? As I said when I started this Post..... in the past I have just installed a winter plug in that port and called it a day. This would at least be an improvement over what I have been doing, right?

Any additional thoughts are greatly appreciated. (Would love to hear from TFP Expert, James W on this issue if you are out there)

 

[Catanzaro]

Blow-thru plug experiment

Blow-Thru Valve Winter Pool Plugs

Look at compressor I purchased as a back up. It works on low pressure.

 

[1Sammy]

OP, what "IF" that air leaks out after you do an air lock ? You have the perfect set up to add the foam rope. The air lock guys do as they do because they can not get rope into the piping at frost level . Keep it simple.

 

[Catanzaro]

OP, what "IF" that air leaks out after you do an air lock ? You have the perfect set up to add the foam rope. The air lock guys do as they do because they can not get rope into the piping at frost level . Keep it simple.

If the air leaks, it is very evident up front as you can hear the hissing right through the piping. This year my valve failed and today the replacement occurred and there is no more hissing. One can place a black plug right in the basket as well. If you have both, then I would recommend highly to clear the line, shut the valve off, remove the blow-thru plug and place a regular plug.

But then again, regular winter plugs can give out just like blow-thru plugs. One item that members are forgetting is that ice expansion is fine if the pipe is smooth and straight or has a slight variance, but 90 degree turns can cause extreme pressure in the piping, depending on how the plumbing is and possibly can cause damage.

There is no right or wrong way to winterize a main drain, but choices and one must decide which route to take.

Most systems from what I have seen have the skimmers attached to the same run as the main drain. It is nearly impossible to place foam rope down the piping. In some of the examples and recommendations given, I have not seen pictures in where the foam rope can be placed, and that is why most forum members are comfortable trapping air in the line. There are some members who leave everything open for expansion, but if there is no backup for ice expansion, one can run into a problem. This is why Gizzmo's are used frequently or plugs with something for expansion in the skimmers and return lines closed as well.

 

[1Sammy]

The OP has no up front to hear anything. He would need to hear a leak about 20" down into the bottom of the skimmer. He would only be able to air lock with a blow through. Then if it were me i would cover up past the stem with antifreeze and check for bubbles. After seeing slow leaks in truck tires that have made no sound and no bubbles but losing air over a few weeks, ( not temp related ) i'm not sure if i would trust an air lock in a case where i have another fool proof option. As Catanzaro said, there are many options and i guess a person just needs to choose one that allows him /her to sleep through the frozen nights, lol.

 

[blazer58]

Finally.... ("The main drain line really only needs to be winterized below the frost line.") How far down is the frost line? The bottom of the skimmer is about 20" below the pool deck surface and about 10" below the bottom of the opening to the skimmer

The frostline in our area is 48-50 inches

 

[JPMorgan]

Thanks for all the information and advice. So here is what I did..... For this year I had a pool company come out and do the air lock on the main drain. (Highway robbery.... about $160 bucks for about 30 minutes of work.) BUT.... I figure I'm paying for education. I watched what they were doing and I will handle this task myself next year. They used a smaller blow through plug than my normal winter plug, so it fits down further into the port that comes from the main drain into the skimmer. Sealing that opening and then blowing air into that line with a blow through plug is the only way to get an air lock on the main drain.... I have no other valve to close the main drain line.

After installing that blow through plug, they simple hooked up a compressor and blew air into the line for a couple of minutes. When that was done he covered the plug with a couple inches of anti-freeze and looked for any air bubbles. Seeing none, they then dumped a whole bottle of anti-freeze in the skimmer and put the empty bottle into the skimmer in such a way that it was pushed down into the liquid to allow for any expansion in case any ice formed in the skimmer. I will borrow my son-in-laws compressor next year and do this job myself. In years past, I never even did this procedure, so it is certainly an improvement over just letting water sit in the main drain line for the winter. Perhaps I have just been lucky because I have never had a problem doing it that way, but I do like the idea of getting air in that line and doing the air lock. Even if the air leaks out I am no worse off than the way I used to do it.

 

[JPMorgan]

How do I keep water out of my skimmer?

Is there a way to keep water out of the skimmer? I lowered water level well below the skimmer inlet and filled the empty skimmer half way up with anti-freeze, but after several weeks it looks mostly like water (not anti-freeze) in the skimmer. I do have an empty anti-freeze bottle in the skimmer (instead of a gizmo) to absorb any expansion if water freezes in there, but I am still a little concerned. I think water is getting in through the finger whole in the skimmer lid and also around the sides of the lid (even though I have pulled the solid winter cover over the lid and placed something on the cover to hold it in place). Any tricks to keeping water out of he skimmer?