Quarantine Pool Build - Please Critique!

[Cluckr7]

Hi all,

I've been a lurker on these forums for several months now, and this site has been very helpful to make me somewhat literate in the language of pools. Living in Texas, building a pool is something we've been wanting to do for a while, but quarantining at home in the summer heat has made this a defcon 1 situation.

Unfortunately, we are not alone...it seems everyone is building a pool right now. Also the big gunite companies in town are dealing with quarantining such that they're significantly scaled down in terms of crews. We had some issues with the first builder we had been talking with and lost any "head start" we had, and we are now resigned to the reality of not having a finished until the winter months.

We realized that this is really a good thing, as we now have time to make sure we have the design and equipment that we want for the longterm, instead of rushing.

At this point, we have finalized the design we want, we think we've identified a builder that we like, and we're trying to finalize the details before signing the contract. I'm hoping to get the groups thoughts to see if there's anything I should change with before pulling the trigger.

Right now, we're at the stage of trying to finalize the design. I ended up designing this myself as it was taking way too long to iterate with overly-busy PBs, which is why I really want to peer-review my design. Some pictures are below, and here the highlights:
- 34'x18' Pool
- We are thinking 3.5' to 6' depth
- 6'x16' sun-shelf, 9" water depth
- 7'x7' Spa
- Travertine pavers and coping. Planning on going unsealed.
- Pebble Sheen plaster (still deciding on color)
- 1 bubbler on the sun shelf, and a 5' sheer descent on the back wall

The equipment list is very preliminary. Is this something that usually gets finalized before the contract, or after? The builder uses Jandy, and the preliminary list includes:
- Jandy VS pump for main pool and spa. Any recommendations on ePump vs FloPro?
- TBD booster pump for water features
- Jandy Cartridge Filter. I still need to do some more research on the exact model I should get.
- Jandy 400,000 BTU heater. Again, need to research the model.
- Automation will be Jandy iAqualink, but I need to figure out the details. Any thoughts on the RS vs Z4? Also, is there a big argument for going with the iPhone control vs just a PDA?
- I'm planning on buying my own Maytronics robot
- PB shows "4 main drains" but I'm guessing this must be a mistake...
- PB shows "5 inlets" but I'm guessing they mean returns? I need to clarify.
- 2 Skimmers
- 4 LEDs for the pool. Is this overkill?
- 1 LED for the spa.

I really wanted a SWG to help automate the TFP method, but every builder I've talked to basically has said my travertine will melt with a SWG, so I'm planning on starting with manual chlorine additions for now with a puck chlorinator as backup, and I'll plan on maybe adding a SWG later. One thing I don't really understand is how much muriatic acid additions are needed with a SWG. I know it's a big maintenance benefit in the summer in terms of automating the chlorination, but does that get cancelled out by needing a lot of acid additions? I admit based on my reading I'm more terrified of adding acid than chlorine.

The final decision point is when to start building. At this point, if we start right now, we'll probably finish in November. We are considering waiting to start until October / November, or maybe even January so that we're not competing with other customers, since we won't be able to use the pool until next Spring anyway.

Anyway, enough talking. I'd love any recommendations!

 

[HermanTX]

Beautiful design. Nice swim lane and plenty of space to play.
You want to ensure you have 2 skimmers. On opposite ends of pool. The wind does more to blow debris than the circulation.
Have you considered umbrella sleeves on the sunshelf? If you have littles ones that will sit in the 9inches of water they may need some shade.
Do you have a shallow first step for the spa? It appears you have to lift leg up over edge and then go down to seat level to enter. May want to consider how "older" folks will get in and out of spa.
We have Wet Edge Technologies Primera Stone pebble and love it. This product is hand sanded after it is installed (prior to filling with water). Very smooth finish. We did Blue Pacific color with shells in it. After polishing, the shells make it glisten in the sun.
All of my equipment is Pentair. I have DE filter which I love and a 400BTU heater. Have been happy with those items. I cannot comment on Jandy performance. However, I did install a Jandy Aqualink PDA about 5 years ago. I don't need it on my phone as I normally just use it to turn on water feature or heater. Would it be nice to have it on my phone - there would be a time or 2 that I could have switched on something remotely but it is not critical. if my Jandy PDA ever breaks then I would consider what is new in the market. What I do not like about my Jandy (and it is due to its age of software) that I have limited options to program things - like only 2 programs per item and the days are either weekend only or full week or none. I would like more options on programing, not so much on remote access via phone app.
If you have robot cleaner then ensure you have an GFCI outlet within reasonable access. I have a pressure operated Polaris which I like (less moving parts) but cleaner type is truly a personal preference. Good Luck

 

[bmoreswim]

I’ll be honest, I don’t usually like a lot of people’s first posted pool. I do like your design though. I like your amount of deck space, your ledge and spa being outside or offset to keep the pool open, your bench along the outside wall.

A few comments. You can’t tell the amount of lights unless you know what kind they are. You only need two full size LED’s for sure. But if they are the niche less, then at least 4, maybe more. Tell the PB you appreciate his warning on the SWG, but get it. Adding acid to my pool is like pouring milk on my cereal. It’s really no big deal whatsoever. Be aware of the fumes, and do it responsibly, but seriously, it’s no issue. All pools are different, but I add acid every two weeks maybe. A quart at a time for my 27K gal pool. And acid doesn’t lose strength like bleach, so I keep a few gallons outside in the shade. I don’t have small kids around to worry about. Look into a channel main drain. They look MUCH nicer, especially when they put the pebble finish right into the lid of the drain. Then as a bonus, you will never have a thread saying that your robot sometimes spins his wheels on your main drain. Good (great) call on getting a Dolphin robot.

With your setup, I’d have full automation and internet (phone) access for sure. Too many great benefits to not have it since you have a full slate of pool options. Just be sure to be very clear before signing about what you want to be able to control independently so the plumbing gets done correctly. That can be a really big hassle if its not laid out correctly for your expectations.

 

[Cluckr7]

Hi all,

I'm working with a builder on a new build as described here, and I had some questions around plumbing. I figured I'd start a dedicated plumbing thread for it. EDIT: looks like my posts got merged.

My question is this:
I've been reading a lot about entrapment risks, especially with kids, and while it does seem like having VGB drain covers and dual drains does mitigate the risk, the engineer in me thinks that these mitigations can fail without me realizing it. Would I realize if one of the drains is clogged and thus I'm in practice down to a single drain, or would I realize if a cover broke?). As such, I'm trying to understand if there's a way to eliminate the risk completely by not having any drains or submerged suction ports in the pool and spa. Is this possible?

As quick background, I plan on having a 34x18 pool (~16-17k gal) and 12" elevated 7x7 spa with spillover. The pool will have a bubbler and sheer descent water features as well. The initial PB design has the pool + spa on a VS pump, and the water features on a separate pump. His initial equipment list shows 2 skimmers and 5 inlets (is "inlets" another word for "returns"?). His initial equipment list also shows 4 drains, which I need to confirm with him but I assume means 2 main drains + 2 drains for the water features.

It seems from my reading (mostly on this site) that pool main drains are really not necessary, so it seems like I can get rid of those and just rely on the two skimmers for pool circulation. However, there's two things that I haven't been able to figure out:

1. How would the water features be run? Could they tie in to the same skimmers as used for pool circ? Or would they need a separate skimmer? Is that a common practice to run features from skimmers instead of submerged drains?
2. Is a drain-less spa possible? I've never paid attention, but I don't recall ever being in a spa with a skimmer.

Thanks in advance for the insight!

 

[Cluckr7]

Thank you for the feedback! This is definitely not the first iteration of the design and I’m much happier with this than the original designs.

I do plan on having at least one umbrella sleeve on the sunshelf and will maybe add another on the deck somewhere. I will check the light types with the PB and ask about a channel drain (I’m pretty sure their default is a pair of round VGB compliant drains).

I am reading into SWG models more now, and from what I’ve been able to gather in forum searches is that people tend to like the Pentair Intellichlor generators better than the Jandy Aquapures, plus the IC60 has way more capacity than the biggest Aquapure.

Unfortunately, my PB uses Jandy equipment and I will have an iAqualink PDA controller.

Does anyone know if the iAqualink can control a Pentair IC60? Would I be limited to only configuring an On/Off on one of the AUX? Or would I be able to control the % that the SWG runs when in Spa mode?

Alternatively my PB (sales guy) did say they normally use Jandy but they could probably use all Pentair equipment for me if I felt really strongly about it. I’m not sure it’s worth the risk switching to something the PB doesn’t do often though, although I’m not sure how much real risk there is with installing the equipment?

Or I can just go with Jandy and the Aquapure.

Any thoughts?

Also do I need a sacrificial zinc anodes installed to protect my heater And/or pump? Or just accept that the metal on the inside of those might wear out faster?

 

[setsailsoon]

7,

Welcome and nice pool! Here are my comments:

• Definitely finalize your pool equipment and as much of the detail as possible before you sign. If you leave anything until after make sure you have in writing the cost differences. If you are not sure what you want you are really not ready to sign. Changes after signature can lead to changes in price that will surprise you. The later they are the more additional cost to the builder so the more unreasonable the price change will seem. They really do cost the builder more than most people realize so they are not really as unreasonable as you think. Don't sign 'till you are sure what you want.
• Consider getting a quote for something other than Jandy. Many experts prefer Pentair or Hayward. Jandy eliminates all DIY repair warranty. This won't affect you now since your builder will be an authorized Jandy rep (verify this). All manufacturers limit DIY warranties but not as strict as Jandy. Also many prefer the VS pump line of Pentair. I had Jandy equipment and overall I think it performed well. But I am now transitioning to Pentair because of the DIY repair issue and I much prefer Pentair's Intellicenter automation.
• If you go with Jandy automation the RS automation has expansion capability for the future. The Z4 does not. Since this is a new pool I'd go for an RS.
• Many Houston builders seem to be reluctant to put in swg. They all claim it will "eat" travertine. Our experts disagree with this. My experience with travertine in several homes is that it is a terrible choice. Looks fabulous to start but eventually will have problems due to the nature of travertine. One of the homes didn't even have a pool the other was a liquid chlorine pool. How long it lasts is very much related to the grade you buy but event the best grades will start to get holes and defects that get worse with age way before you would expect. Sometimes in just a few years. I love the look but will never have it anywhere in any home in the future. It is also very expensive to replace. So my recommendation would be to do something else. Also, I don't believe swg has anything to do with the issue.
• Do go with a salt pool. I went 5 years without one and switched a little over a year ago. Fantastic! And I wish I had done this from day 1.
• If you use automation there are advantages to using the same brand of equipment. Not that you can't do it just there are advantages. It has to do with the way equipment "talks" to equipment. Any automation can simply switch on or off any equipment. If you want to do more than that it takes a communications technique that is a little more sophisticated. This is called a serial link (RS 485 specifically). Equipment manufacturers use proprietary communication protocol or language to accomplish this. They don't talk different languages easily. There are adapters that can accomplish this but they add cost and most builders will want to avoid them. So what does this mean to you? You can turn on any brand of pump from any automation. But if you want to tell it what speed to run based on a schedule or when other equipment runs you need an adapter and implementation can become difficult.
• On your swg automation question, you would be limited to turn the Pentair I60 on and off but this isn't as much of a disadvantage as it sounds. Once you get your swg settings adjusted you can easily adjust the run time on your automation schedule to adjust FC levels. I was concerned about this a lot when I went with 3rd party Circupool swg with my previous Jandy RS and more recently my Pentair Intellicenter automation. But I found run time very easy to control with. In reality once I got used to my swg I found I almost never have to adjust it. FC just floats in a range slightly above target. Typically runs 6-9 ppm most of the time all by itself. As the cell ages I expect to tweak % power up a little but so far it has not even required this.
• If you haven't read ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry. You should do so soon. You'll find pucks are not a good way to chlorinate most of the time. SWG does not require more acid than pucks. It's just that pucks are half cyanuric acid so they often don't require any acid addition. Problem with this is CYA is very persistent so it builds up and eventually requires a pool water draining. There's no other way to reduce CYA level. PH isn't that difficult to control with MA. Once you get your chemistry balanced it usually will only need MA once or twice per week. There are a few other tricks you can use to make it more stable. I use them and add about 30 oz per week.
• Some builders only have trained people for one brand of equipment. It's not a big deal for most equipment to install a different brand except for automation. Installation for all brands is straight forward and similar. But configuration of the system is completely different. This can be a tough choice you have to make. If it were me I'd tell him to price Pentair as an option and require that he has an experienced installer. His choice if it's a person that works directly for him or not. If your not an avid DIY or you don't care about the finer points of automation your choice may be different.
• There are different opinions on zinc anodes. I don't have them and don't see any indication they matter. Maybe an expert can weigh in on this.
• One last item I'd recommend is about your contract. Have you looked at the contract you will sign and do you understand all of the wording? Most are written for the builder by his attorney and they are not fair to both parties without some modification. Doesn't matter if everything goes perfect. But pool construction is complex and at least a few things go wrong. Good to have a fair contract that's not onerous to either party and fair. Let me know if you need more information on this.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Cluckr7]

@setsailsoon @HermanTX @bmoreswim

Thank you so much for the responses.

What would you recommend if not travertine? The other option we had considered is stamped concrete.

I will definitely check with the builder how much experience they have with installing Pentair equipment.

It’s funny you mention the contract. I had started hitting down notes on things I’d like changed. Specifically a way for me to cancel if the build doesn’t start for a long time. In your experience what other things should I look for?

 

[HermanTX]

With regard to your question on a separate pump for a water feature. I have separate intake (on side of the pool about 3 ft down) and pump to operate my water feature. I find this easy and best to do to isolate it from normal pool circulation. It is extra equipment and lines but feel it is best. FYI, the intakes (2) have the same drain covers as the bottom of my pool.

I have 2 drains at the bottom and feel that is very sufficient to avoid entrapment. I donned my scuba equipment and have laid on the bottom to feel the flow at the main drains and do not think that is an issue - at least on my flow rates and simple test. These drains have very small openings but many of them, so clogging seems almost impossible unless you dump a bucket of mud & debris on top of it. Also, I think you want to have drains at bottom to provide you options for circulation, partial drains, etc.

when you are spending sufficient money on a construction, it is probably best to engage a lawyer to review the contract and provide you advice on your points as well as point out other concerns the lawyer may find. Maybe you have a friend, relative, work associate or neighbor (sometimes you can enlist the help of your community forum to look for a lawyer). Spending $600-$1000 now may save you a lot of headache in the future when things go wrong. And you can almost be assured some things will go wrong and most likely fixable, but will cause you some anxiety and possibly some $$$$.

 

[setsailsoon]

7,

Here are some from a recent post I did on another thread:

• What are the warranty terms? Do you understand what exactly is covered and how it will be rectified?
• Make sure you understand your obligations such as access and start up.
• Are there any answers you have to provide to the builder at a specific milestone event and if so, how long do you have?
• If there are any words in the contract that you are not sure about. Indemnity, liability have meaning important to both parties.
• Does the builder have responsibility for the entire job including permits, waste disposal etc?
• What are the provisions for unknown underground obstructions?
• Payment terms should be fair to both parties. Never get too far ahead of builder costs.
• Is there a performance test required prior to final release of last payment? If not, there should be. Doesn't need to be complicated:
  • Pool holds water
  • Equipment works
  • Materials are as agreed
  • Quality meets agreed requirements
• Termination provisions. Who can do it and what are the ramifications. This can be as simple or complex as you need. I much prefer simple. Realize there will be weather delays regardless of the market. In a busy market delays get worse for many reasons including supplier delays. But at some point delay if just because the builder makes more $ on another job or has some other motivator you need an out. Discuss this with the builder then put in what you think is fair. You should never agree to delay "in perpetuity" for anything other than a builders obligation for warranty.
• If a builder uses a lot of subcontractors make sure you do not make final payment until release of liens are clear and documented.

I'd like to be clear I'm not an attorney. I've managed several billion $ of construction projects from very large to very small. My comments are driven by "lessons learned" the hard way.

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[Cluckr7]

Had a quick question on finishings - we are planning on having either split face travertine or stacked stone travertine for the face of our raised wall on the back of the pool. We plan on having a sheer descent coming out, similar to the picture below.

Does this stone need to be sealed? We weren't planning on sealing any of the travertine coping or deck pavers, but wondering about this wall getting direct water contact a lot?

 

[JJ_Tex]

We have a salt water pool with all travertine (coping, pavers, split faced on the wall) and have not sealed anything, nor do I plan on it. No issues so far and we absolutely love ours.

 

[jark87]

We’ve had salt for 13 years with no issues. Our coping is flagstone. As far as maintenance goes, I add between a pint and quart of acid roughly once a week. That’s it - virtually maintenance free!

Also, you may want to consider a chiller if your pool will have lots of sun exposure. We added one 5 years ago and it’s the best thing we’ve done for the pool.

 

[wilkj1]

first welcome home to TFP .love your pool design. my first thought is travertine is soft in places we had it in our home drop anything hard you got a possible hole (not deep just divots ) sealing travertine can make it slick even stamped concrete sealed can be slick but there are things like graphite in sealer to help and even water based sealers work but require more often resealing .you will never regret going salt (where in Texas ?) the coast is salty anyway lol. so in short if you want salt get it now it is a game changer imo.
jimmie

also be ready for lots of help spending your cash we like to help in that depo and pics pics pics...........good luck

 

[Cluckr7]

Does anyone have an opinion on the sheer descent width? We were planning on going with a single 5’ descent. I’m second guessing whether that would be too loud or would raise the PH too much, and whether we should go with something smaller like a 2-3 ft descent?

We would only run this plus the single bubbler on demand, which I would guess is an hour or two every other day-ish.

 

[Cluckr7]

Ok, I have another detail question.

The design currently shows 2 steps from a 9" water depth shelf to a 42" (3.5 feet) shallow end. This will make the steps 11" rise each.

Or alternatively, if we add a third step, this will make the steps ~8" rise each, but it makes the initial step pretty close to my quarter-circle step into the shelf.

Thoughts? What's a normal comfortable step rise for pools?

 

[craigP]

My 2 cents is to add the 3rd step and go with the smaller rise. It will be an easier in and out for everyone, especially if you have anyone "older" using the pool at some point.

 

[Cluckr7]

Thanks for the response. I think I will go with the three steps.

I got my equipment list from the PB. I decided to have him go with Jandy equipment. I did want Pentair and the PB said they'd be willing to do it, but my feeling was that it wasn't worth the risk to go out of their norm / experience band. They could rattle off Jandy equipment / model numbers very readily, but couldn't do this with Pentair models, so based on that I decided to go with Jandy. Hopefully that's the right decision, but if anyone thinks it's imperative that I go with Pentair let me know!

Here's the equipment list:
- Jandy Cartridge CV460 filter
- Jandy Variable Speed pump VSPHP270AUT 2.7THP
- Jandy JXI400N 400K BTU NG Heater
- Rainbow 320 Chlorinator R171096 #320 – backup for SWG, I recognize I probably won't use it a lot (hopefully ever)
- Aquapure PLC1400 40K GAL Purelink SCG Cell kit
- PlusHP series Pump Single speed for water features- HP TBD
- Nicheless LED lights JLU4C24W100 24W RGBW – Pool
- Nicheless LED light JLU4C6W100 6W RGBW – Spa
- PDA – PS6 Aqualink PDA6 Control System with IQ20 Antenna iAqualink
- CPVC Neverlube valves

Any thoughts?

I did have some specific questions:
- With these nicheless lights, should I go with 4 of them?
- Is there a big difference between the Aqualink PDA vs RS? I haven't been able to figure out whether there's a big functionality difference. Is it just a matter of whether or not I need the PDA (at presumably higher cost) since I'll probably be using my phone, or is there an actual functionality difference between PDA and RS?
- What's the difference between the Flo Pro, ePump, and PlusHP lines of VS pumps?

 

[HermanTX]

Does anyone have an opinion on the sheer descent width? We were planning on going with a single 5’ descent. I’m second guessing whether that would be too loud or would raise the PH too much, and whether we should go with something smaller like a 2-3 ft descent?

We would only run this plus the single bubbler on demand, which I would guess is an hour or two every other day-ish.

I have a waterfall that is 4ft wide and it is loud (in a good way) when operating. I think the 5ft wide descent will be nice.

 

[Cluckr7]

Thanks HermanTX!

Do you or anyone else have any thoughts on the equipment list?

Thanks!

 

[HermanTX]

I do not have Jandy equipment except for the PDA that controls my system. I find the PDA very useful and other than going to the main panel at the equipment pad is my only means to control and set programs. I did have a panel inside the house but I opted to remove that. My wife did not like it on the wall. Now my Jandy PDA is over 6 years old so it lacks a lot of sophisticated software with detailed programing but it suits my needs now and I may upgrade in future.
I would challenge the need for the Rainbow 320 Chlorinator R171096 #320. I have a similar product and turned it completely off and just use a floating duck with pucks if I go away for weekend. if you are serious about a SWG in the future then just go with the floater and avoid that piece of expense. I think you find it more trouble then they are worth. (My personal view).