Pump/Plumbing/Solar Questions

[mas985]

Any preferences for the various PVC ball valves out there?

Yes, don't use them. Use Jandy two way valves instead. They are more expensive for sure but it will save you frustration later on.

 

[jblizzle]

Any preferences for the various PVC ball valves out there?

Yes, don't use them. Use Jandy two way valves instead. They are more expensive for sure but it will save you frustration later on.

Afraid you would say that ...

what is the equivalent of BOAT (Bust Out Another Thou$and) for POOL :lol:

 

[jblizzle]

Regarding the heater bypass:
Is it a bad idea to put a 3-way on the heater inlet and stop all flow through it if not used? I feel like that would leave stagnant water just sitting in the heater and that seems bad.

Best to just put a 2-way between the inlet and outlet that can be closed to put all water through the heater or open to allow most of the water to bypass? (some water still would go through right?)

 

[mas985]

Yea, I would agree with the second option. I wouldn't like to leave water sit in the heater either. Plus there may still be enough flow through the heater to use it even when the valve is open or just a tiny bit closed but you may have to experiment some with that.

 

[jblizzle]

I see that the 3/4 HP version appears to only be 115V while the 1 HP is 230V like my present motor ... should I care if I drop to 115V or are 230V more efficient? Although I understand that the 1 HP would still use more watts.

No, the efficiency of a pump is about the same on each voltage. However, you will need a neutral wire which should be available if you have a subpanel near the pump but check before purchasing.

OK, so I was getting ready to order the 3/4HP 115V pump and got to thinking about another concern. This pump lists is Amps as 14.6/4.7.

My current electrical setup has a 20 amp 230V circuit run to the pool pad on 12 AWG wire to a small fuze box. Currently my pump runs on 230V on 2 of the fuzes and the GFI outlet and pool light are on a 3rd and the 4th does not appear to be connected to anything. {Note: when I get my Pro Logic I will get rid of the fuze panel and eventually run a new higher power circuit to feed everything ... but that is not currently near-term}

My concern: Just doing some quick wire sizing calculations over the 120 foot run for <3% Voltage drop.
my current pump is pulling ~9amps @ 230V needs #12 AWG so I am good
The 3/4 pump could pull 14.5amps @ 115V needs #8 AWG ... not so good.

Would running the 3/4 pump over the current wiring with a 6% / 7V drop be hard on the motor at high speed?

While maybe more pump than I need (although still less than I have) would the 1 HP 2-sp which is 7.8/3.0 amps at 230V be safer on the motor with my current electrical setup?

I guess I am a little confused by how a 15A load at 120V requires a larger wire than a 15A load at 230V after all it is the same amount of current passing over the same size wire. The voltage drop is the same # of volts, so I guess the concern is just that it is a higher % drop on a 120V circuit than a 240V circuit which could affect performance and not necessarily a concern of overheating the wire.

Thoughts?

 

[jblizzle]

Out of curiosity, what would happen to the pump if one of the fuzes on the 2 legs popped (I realize this is a STUPID design ... infact the 2 legs at the main breaker used to be on 2 different breakers as well ... I replaced that with a single double pole breaker, but have not gotten to the fuze box yet)?
Would the motor stop working?
Would the other fuze pop?
Would the motor keep working, but start to generate more heat? ... wondering if this is going on now since it seems to be getting so hot (although it does not sound any different like bearing problems, etc)

 

[jongig]

Would you mind letting me know how much and where you got a great deal on the Heliocol panels? You can PM me. Reason I ask is that I have them and need more. The Heliocol panels seem to be very well made but they were pricey when i bought them.

john

 

[jblizzle]

Would you mind letting me know how much and where you got a great deal on the Heliocol panels? You can PM me. Reason I ask is that I have them and need more. The Heliocol panels seem to be very well made but they were pricey when i bought them.

john

I found them used on Craigslist ... will PM with more details.

 

[jongig]

Out of curiosity, what would happen to the pump if one of the fuzes on the 2 legs popped (I realize this is a STUPID design ... infact the 2 legs at the main breaker used to be on 2 different breakers as well ... I replaced that with a single double pole breaker, but have not gotten to the fuze box yet)?
Would the motor stop working?
Would the other fuze pop?
Would the motor keep working, but start to generate more heat? ... wondering if this is going on now since it seems to be getting so hot (although it does not sound any different like bearing problems, etc)

If one leg is open the pump will just stop working. Some pumps have electronics and they make a point of saying one leg can not be open at a time. If you used a pump with electronics you'd just have to wire a double pole 220 volt relay and in-line of the pump and that would open both legs to the pump if one leg were to open.

 

[jblizzle]

Out of curiosity, what would happen to the pump if one of the fuzes on the 2 legs popped (I realize this is a STUPID design ... infact the 2 legs at the main breaker used to be on 2 different breakers as well ... I replaced that with a single double pole breaker, but have not gotten to the fuze box yet)?
Would the motor stop working?
Would the other fuze pop?
Would the motor keep working, but start to generate more heat? ... wondering if this is going on now since it seems to be getting so hot (although it does not sound any different like bearing problems, etc)

If one leg is open the pump will just stop working. Some pumps have electronics and they make a point of saying one leg can not be open at a time. If you used a pump with electronics you'd just have to wire a double pole 220 volt relay and in-line of the pump and that would open both legs to the pump if one leg were to open.

It is on a double pole relay now at the main panel, but each leg is on a round separate fuze at the subpanel by the pad. So it is possible that one of the fuzes could go bad and the other leg would still have power going to the motor. I guess if the other leg is broken, then the loop could not complete ... or could the power from one leg feed through to the ground?

Thanks for the info, just curious if that could have been the recent over-heating. Another thought, maybe the fuzes are sort of bad and I am not getting a full 230V to the motor ... could that be causing the heat?

 

[JasonLion]

It is highly unusual for fuses to go "sort of bad". They either work, or they don't work, full on or full off.

A standard 240 volt motor will simply think that it is off when one line is blown. A three phase motor is a whole different story, but you don't see those on residential pools.

Over heating can be caused by getting the wrong voltage, or having to little load, or too much load, or several other things. But I have never heard of anything overheating because of bad fuses.

 

[mas985]

Another option is to go with a Pentair SuperFlo SF-N2-1A. It is a 1 HP up rated pump that runs on 230v. It is actually slightly smaller than the Whisperflo WFDS-24/3 but it has about the same energy factor.

 

[jblizzle]

Ugh now you opened a can of worms :-D

So I have reason to be concerned about running a 115V pump on my current wiring?

Based on the Pentair info I see some interesting things:
1. For the same power consumption the Whisperflo (-3) moves a lot more water than the Superflo (-3/4A) @ 115V
2. For the same SFHP (1.25) the Superflo -1A uses less power than the -3/4A while moving more water (6@230 vs 14.6@115)

Previous estimates put me between 57-65 feet of head (lets assume 60 feet):

3. The Whisperflo -3 (115V) would give me 60 GPM, but the Superflo -1A (230V) would give 37 GPM (that does not seem to be enough right?)
Going to the Superflo -1-1/2A (230V) would give 55 GPM which seem similar enough, but the power is 7.8/3amps which is the same as the Whisperflo -4 (230V) which would move more water for the same power.

Does the head change between different pumps so that my above analysis in #3 does not make sense? Or is it really a function of the plumbing?

So what do I need / what should I do?

-I think I need 55GPM+ for solar efficiency, but if my understanding or head is correct the -1A seems too small.
-The -1-1/2A moves about the same amount of water as the -3 while using more power, does cost $50 less and $100 less than the -4 which uses the same power, but moves more water.

I also thought the recommendation of the Whisperflo was due to their water moving capability for the same amount of power. Now if I may step away from that and look at the Superflo, should I also consider other manufacturers?

What I think I have figured out is that I would like to order a WhisperFlo WFDS-3.5 or WFDS-25 230V pump ... let me know if anyone can find one :lol:

 

[mas985]

Head is not a constant and it depends upon the flow rate in the plumbing which in turn depends upon the pump attached to the plumbing.

Also, the thing you need to focus on is each pump's energy factor (Gallons pumped per watt-hr consumed) because this is what determines the cost to run the pump. Here are the estimates that I can up with for each pump and assuming that you fix the pad plumbing and that is where most of your head loss exists (particularly the heater). All of these estimates are with solar engaged on high speed:

WFDS-26/4: 60 GPM @ 71' of head & 1758 watts, 2.04 gallons/watt-hr, (6.4 PSI @ VRV)

WFDS-24/3: 58 GPM @ 66' of head & 1550 watts, 2.23 gallons/watt-hr, (5.7 PSI @ VRV)

SF-N2-1A: 52 GPM @ 55' of head & 1355 watts, 2.32 gallons/watt-hr, (4.1 PSI @ VRV)

SF-N2-3/4A: 44 GPM @ 40' of head & 1105 watts, 2.41 gallons/watt-hr, (1.8 PSI @ VRV)

You will note that there is less PSI margin for the smaller pumps so you will need to clean your filter before it rises that amount otherwise the VRV will open. I did not suggest the SF-N2-3/4A because the pressure margin at the VRV is too low for my liking.

Also, as you can see above, there is no WFDS-25. The next larger pump is the WFDS-26/4. But why do you want to go so big? That pump will cost about 15% more to run than the SF-N2-1A.

 

[jblizzle]

Head is not a constant and it depends upon the flow rate in the plumbing which in turn depends upon the pump attached to the plumbing.

OK, I figured it was not quite as simple as I was trying to make it

Also, the thing you need to focus on is each pump's energy factor (Gallons pumped per watt-hr consumed) because this is what determines the cost to run the pump. Here are the estimates that I can up with for each pump and assuming that you fix the pad plumbing and that is where most of your head loss exists (particularly the heater). All of these estimates are with solar engaged on high speed:

My concern is how much I am going to be able to "fix the pad" I have conceptualized a few different plumbing routing options and it seems that the best I might be able to do would be to remove 2-3 90deg fittings and add a bypass to the heater. Maybe the bypass will be the biggest factor, but I was hoping to be able to figure out how to eliminate a lot more turns, but where stuff comes out of the ground seems to be not helping. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

WFDS-26/4: 60 GPM @ 71' of head & 1758 watts, 2.04 gallons/watt-hr, (6.4 PSI @ VRV)

WFDS-24/3: 58 GPM @ 66' of head & 1550 watts, 2.23 gallons/watt-hr, (5.7 PSI @ VRV)

SF-N2-1A: 52 GPM @ 55' of head & 1355 watts, 2.32 gallons/watt-hr, (4.1 PSI @ VRV)

SF-N2-3/4A: 44 GPM @ 40' of head & 1105 watts, 2.41 gallons/watt-hr, (1.8 PSI @ VRV)

You will note that there is less PSI margin for the smaller pumps so you will need to clean your filter before it rises that amount otherwise the VRV will open. I did not suggest the SF-N2-3/4A because the pressure margin at the VRV is too low for my liking.

Based on these numbers, the -1A flow rate seems close to the recommended flow rate of the solar (I guess being a little low will just slightly reduce the solar efficiency). My concern is that I may not be able to "fix the pad" as much as you may have assumed. Also, the Superflo numbers do not seem to match the flow curves from Pentair's website (which maybe also confused me). According to the chart, the -1A @ 55' is 45 GPM and the -3/4A @ 40' is 52 GPM ... so I still obviously do not "get it".

So let me be sure, with the -1A and solar, I would need to clean the filter before the pressure rises 4 PSI?

Also, as you can see above, there is no WFDS-25. The next larger pump is the WFDS-26/4. But why do you want to go so big? That pump will cost about 15% more to run than the SF-N2-1A.

I realize there is no -3.4 / -25 I was trying to be funny (and failing apparently). Based on your previous recommendation of the -3, I thought if I could get something that size @ 230V that would be the way to go.

So, in your expert opinion, you think the -1A is adequate?
Does the -1-1/2A power consumption go up quite a bit for a marginal increase in flow rate?
Ignoring my possible electricity delivery limitation, would you still recommend the -1A (230V) over the -3 (115V)?

Thanks so much for you patience ... it is the little engineer in me that tries to understand (which is also why I originally was trying to learn you spreadsheet before it was removed :-D )

 

[mas985]

Published head curves tend to be theoretical and I am using measured data which I trust more than the published head curves. Plus Pentair has mixed up the head curves for the SuperFlo series of pumps so I certainly don't trust those.

So, in your expert opinion, you think the -1A is adequate? - Yes

Does the -1-1/2A power consumption go up quite a bit for a marginal increase in flow rate? - Yes but it has about the same energy factor has the WFDS-24/3 so it would be slightly better than the WFDS-26/4.

Ignoring my possible electricity delivery limitation, would you still recommend the -1A (230V) over the -3 (115V)? - That is a hard call. The Whisperflo series gives good flow rate but has a slightly less energy factor. Given that you are only changing the pad plumbing, I might go with the SuperFlo as it is more suited for smaller/higher head loss plumbing.

If you want to really nail this down and get much better estimates, can I recommend the following:

1) Change the post filter plumbing first including heater bypass complete with all the solar plumbing.

2) Measure the pressure and suction on the existing pump. This will give me a much better estimate of current head loss. But even if you have only filter pressure, having that after the pad replumb will help.

3) Choose pump and replumb pre-filter plumbing.

 

[jblizzle]

Unfortunately, getting the solar all setup is delayed since I am still working on getting the roof refinished before installing the new solar setup. So getting #1 done might not be possible for awhile ... although I probably would redo the pad before this anyway, just would not be able to turn the non-existant solar on.

I am also worried my current overheating pump may go belly-up before I am able to replumb and we would be able to get all this measured.

Since I want to move all the equipment and put down larger more level pavers, I may just have to replumb everything at the same time and not sure it would make sense to plumb in the old pump (assuming it lasts) and then have to cut it out to install a new pump (although that is really not that much plumbing).

Based on my current pad pix, you have any thoughts on rearranging anything?
I plan to extend all the valves higher away from the ground and put a new 3-way on the solar and add in the required check valves. The input to the heater is on the "wrong" side for easy bypass, but have a decent idea how I can do it where there is a straight bypass to it (just will have a few more turns if I want to route more through the heater). Also need to worry about fitting the Hayward SWG cell and flow switch before the return manifold.

Rotating the filter 90deg CW might reduce a couple 90s, but then would put the multi-valve in a weird place.

I suppose I will just see if the current pump keep going for a few weeks and try to see what I can get done with the pad before I order a new pump if I can get better pressure numbers.

How much would it help if I was able to add another suction line? I am pretty sure there is a wall return (guessing it was for a dedicated waterfall pump) that I might be able to dig up. Not sure of the size of the pipe or exactly how I would put a cover over it so it was not dangerous.

 

[mas985]

Certainly, if the pump fails you will need to replace that but my thought was that the pump and the rest of the plumbing are somewhat isolatedso they do not need to be done at the same time. Also pavers you have look fine to me so that doesn't necessary need to be done either.

The plumbing for the most part does not look that bad and I am not sure I would bother with the filter connections since that may require a new backwash valve. Those are welds and not threaded correct? The important things are the solar valve installation and the heater bypass. Those will have the largest impact on the solar performance. There is plenty of room for the solar valve betwen the filter and heater so that should not be a problem and you don't really need to change much with that except adding the solar valve and bypass. Second out of the heater, I would drop it straight down to the return pipe instead of the U. And of course remove the current solar installation. These changes are the least invasive and wouldn't require much rework.

As for adding another suction line, that is one of the best things you can do as long as it does not cost too much and/or is too much work. It has multiple effects. The first is it reduces suction head loss so the pump is less likely to draw in air. Also with less head loss comes higher flow rates and better energy factors. And third, the pressure will be higher in the solar so you can get away with a smaller pump.

 

[jblizzle]

Certainly, if the pump fails you will need to replace that but my thought was that the pump and the rest of the plumbing are somewhat isolatedso they do not need to be done at the same time. Also pavers you have look fine to me so that doesn't necessary need to be done either.

Got ya. I just do not care for the filter and heater sitting on 4 different pavers that are clearly not level to each other. I figure this has to be adding stress to something. Just thought if I was going to be redoing plumbing, now is the time to move the stuff and put down 3 2'x2' concrete pavers that would be more stable (maybe overkill).

The plumbing for the most part does not look that bad and I am not sure I would bother with the filter connections since that may require a new backwash valve. Those are welds and not threaded correct?

I need to verify, but I thought the pipes were threaded into the multi-valve ... although I guess unscrewing them and replacing them may cause problems.

The important things are the solar valve installation and the heater bypass. Those will have the largest impact on the solar performance. There is plenty of room for the solar valve betwen the filter and heater so that should not be a problem and you don't really need to change much with that except adding the solar valve and bypass.

I realize the heater bypass is key. Also, that "green" valve is for the solar currently, but I am replacing it with a new one with actuator.

Second out of the heater, I would drop it straight down to the return pipe instead of the U. And of course remove the current solar installation. These changes are the least invasive and wouldn't require much rework.

Not sure I follow the straight down instead of U comment. Do you mean into the horizontal return pipe and not the loop with the check valve (I am going to put a better flapper one in) from the solar? I think that is what I plan to do: After the solar and new check valve Ts back into the main return line, T up and over to the Heater inlet, After that T a 2-way valve (the bypass) and the outlet of the heater will go over the heater inlet and down into a T into the return line. Then hopefully there is enough room between that the the return manifold to fit the SWG and Flow switch. I may also try to fit another T before the manifold to a 2-way valve for the waterfall.

As for adding another suction line, that is one of the best things you can do as long as it does not cost too much and/or is too much work. It has multiple effects. The first is it reduces suction head loss so the pump is less likely to draw in air. Also with less head loss comes higher flow rates and better energy factors. And third, the pressure will be higher in the solar so you can get away with a smaller pump.

If I find the time I am going to do some digging and see if I can find that old return line. I am hoping if I follow the strange line running to the waterfall return I will find the other pipe. There is also an electrical conduit over there not hooked to anything which also points to a former separate pump. The hole in the pool wall is currently just a female threaded fitting (1 or 1.5") with a screw in plug right nor. How do I hook a cover to this? Or would I just leave that as is and just screw a cover over it into the pebblesheen/gunite? If I can find it, I guess I would then just run it over near the pump. Would it be best to put a separate 2-way on each return, or just put a 3-way between them?

Could be an interesting weekend.

When all this gets straightened out I am going to have to become a supporter of this site do to all the help you have given me ... too bad you probably do not get kickbacks

EDIT: Something else I think I just realized is that the SuperFlo appears to be a direct replacement for the Hayward RS I currently have. So if I did replumb everything with my current pump, the SuperFlo should just swap in using the same unions.

 

[mas985]

The check valve for solar should be right after the filter and before the solar valve. There should be a second check valve on the return solar before it gets plumbed back into the main return line. You could actually plumb the solar return after the heater if it is easier.

Currently the heater exit pipe goes horizontal PAST the return pipe. I am suggesting to just drop it straight down to the return pipe with just 2 90s.

For the new suction, you might be able to find a screw in cover. Just look at some online places that have fittings and see what will work. Either dual two ways or a 3-way would be fine.