Pump Circuit Breaker Tripping overnight

[SunnyP2000]

My Pool was installed last year, PB closed the pool and i was able to open it myself about two weeks ago. Everything was going great till this week monday morning pumps wont start . i got email from my panel " MSP_DEV_COMM_LOSS,Comm Loss Device:10-01-13-b8-0c HUA:VSP" . I have two of the same pumps and they are on two pole 30amp gfci breaker. I checked and breaker was tripped. i fixed the breaker and everything was great , then again this morning i got a same email and breaker is tripped. Keep in mind pumps are not running , i have them shut down around 7pm and the come on at 7am. Here in northeast pumps are installed on an outlet so then can be winterized. When i installed the pumps i had sure the grounding is nice and tight. it has been little chilly overnight maybe moisture somewhere? All other forums i have read mainly circuit trips when pumps are on or speed changes. I have a call into hayward i am sure they wont be any help but in the mean time i am wondering is anyone come across something like this. I have attached pics of setup.

 

[ajw22]

I would hardwire the pumps and see if the GFCI trips stop.

Those weatherproof outlet boxes are never perfectly weatherproof. And all it takes is a bit of moisture getting into the plug to trip the GFCI.

If you want to take in the pumps in the winter all it takes is flipping off the breaker, disconnecting the two power wires, and putting caps on the wires.

Having outlets and plugs for 240V pool pumps are just setting you up for problems.

 

[SunnyP2000]

I would hardwire the pumps and see if the GFCI trips stop.

Those weatherproof outlet boxes are never perfectly weatherproof. And all it takes is a bit of moisture getting into the plug to trip the GFCI.

If you want to take in the pumps in the winter all it takes is flipping off the breaker, disconnecting the two power wires, and putting caps on the wires.

Having outlets and plugs for 240V pool pumps are just setting you up for problems.

thanks let me do some troubleshooting. i suspect those outlets as well let me seal them up and see what happens. since its only happening at night and while the pumps are not even running it looks more and more like outlet issue.

 

[tstex]

Sunny

I agree w Allen...hardwire them and forget the outlet.

Also, another issue is you have two VSP's on the same circuit. If it were me, I would lose the 30AMP breaker, buy 2 Siemens 20amp DP GFCI breakers and install ea pump on of their own circuit breaker. You have the slot opening too. Hardwire them both and I would bet you a James Coney Is dog your problems are over....

 

[wireform]

You can also do process of elimination by unplugging one pump and then reverse it the next night if nothing trips to see which pump may cause the tripping.

 

[SunnyP2000]

thanks guys let me start with disconnecting one pump and sealing around the outlets. funny story i was talking to my neighbor he is having same issue and it started this week. i bet its moisture in outlets. i will report back. thanks

 

[wireform]

Those outlets should've been mounted higher off the ground being in a snow climate.

 

[SunnyP2000]

Those outlets should've been mounted higher off the ground being in a snow climate.

i agree with you 100% but its done per code and inspector didnt say anything either. i will make sure in winter to cover them so no snow/water is getting in. that's if i leave them alone. i might just end up hardwiring everything. considering everything is new and now i have to spend more money to redo everything i might leave it alone. wire pricing has gone through the roof.

 

[tstex]

Sunny,

You can take it one step at a time, but no matter what, I would hardwire bc the payoff exceeds all the headaches for yrs to come. Options:

• Go to electrical store and ask them how to weatherproof outlets; what to do for both rains and snow
• Hardwire both pumps to the existing 30amp gfci breaker [see what happens over a 2-4 mo period
• Ideally, install 2 20amp GFCI breakers and hardware each pump to a separate breaker...this eliminates ALL moisture issues and electronic noise [harmonics[] that variable speed drives cause...also prevents green pools and allows for more worry free vacations...but yes, it costs more...pools are not cheap

good luck

 

[SunnyP2000]

Sunny,

You can take it one step at a time, but no matter what, I would hardwire bc the payoff exceeds all the headaches for yrs to come. Options:

• Go to electrical store and ask them how to weatherproof outlets; what to do for both rains and snow
• Hardware both pumps to the existing 30amp gfci breaker [see what happens over a 2-4 mo period
• Ideally, install 2 20amp GFCI breakers and hardware each pump to a separate breaker...this eliminates ALL moisture issues and electronic noise [harmonics[] that variable speed drives cause...also prevents green pools and allows for more worry free vacations...but yes, it costs more...pools are not cheap

good luck

thank you i agree with you 100% and that's exactly my plan.

 

[SunnyP2000]

Update: so last week i sealed lot of the areas with thick vinyl tape thinking its moisture that's causing it to trip, everything was great but woke up this morning and it had tripped again. my next steps will be to disconnect one of the pumps to see if it trips. I'll start with waterfall pump. I also ordered this siemens breaker to replace the square d breaker.

its weird that it tripped last Monday and Wednesday morning then again today Monday morning, however its all different times.

 

[wireform]

Good luck on sniffin out the problem but just be forewarned the extra connection (plug/socket) setup you have is also a possible reason for a cc trip aside from a moisture as it also adds resistance to the circuit which gfci circuits don't tolerate well.

 

[SunnyP2000]

Good luck on sniffin out the problem but just be forewarned the extra connection (plug/socket) setup you have is also a possible reason for a cc trip aside from a moisture as it also adds resistance to the circuit which gfci circuits don't tolerate well.

thanks

 

[tstex]

Sunny

Dont go to dinner in the City 2-3 times and you’re hm free…hardwire w 2 circuits and you will end all worries…there’s something about peace of mind and no green pools.

Both of my pumps are on separate, sole circuits. Ended an 8 mo nightmare…until the “EcoStarless” reared it’s ugly controller head. Your filter pump is much more stable w a solid & clean source of power…give it to her and you are set

 

[jedigrover]

The outlets seem like a great idea, but it’s another thing to go wrong. Dew could be forming in them in the morning and tripping the GFCI. GFCIs are really sensitive. Since it’s happening when they aren’t even on, I’d suspect few in the outlets—you can’t keep humidity out of them.

Another reason to put each pump on its own breaker is startup/inrush current. When a pump first starts, the current can shoot quite a bit higher momentarily than it will be steady-state. Like on the order of 16-18 amps. That’s getting into near tripping territory for a 20A circuit. 2 pumps on a 30A seems like asking for trouble. Your PB was trying to save a few dollars.

For this same reason, you shouldn’t have 2 pumps start at the same time. Check your timers…put them at least 1 min apart if possible.

 

[SunnyP2000]

The outlets seem like a great idea, but it’s another thing to go wrong. Dew could be forming in them in the morning and tripping the GFCI. GFCIs are really sensitive. Since it’s happening when they aren’t even on, I’d suspect few in the outlets—you can’t keep humidity out of them.

Another reason to put each pump on its own breaker is startup/inrush current. When a pump first starts, the current can shoot quite a bit higher momentarily than it will be steady-state. Like on the order of 16-18 amps. That’s getting into near tripping territory for a 20A circuit. 2 pumps on a 30A seems like asking for trouble. Your PB was trying to save a few dollars.

For this same reason, you shouldn’t have 2 pumps start at the same time. Check your timers…put them at least 1 min apart if possible.

both pumps never start together . 1 pump comes on at 6:45 am and second which is waterfall pump (sheer decent) only comes on at 12:30pm every other day for 2 min just to keep the water flowing that's in the pipes. only other time i will turn on the waterfall pump will be if guest are over but since i just opened the pool about 3 weeks ago and water is cold we wont be using the pool for at least another month. i still think its moisture that's causing it to trip . last two time it happened at 1am and 2 am today it happened around 5am, remember pumps are off. i just get a email from automation maybe a min later after breaker trips.

 

[jedigrover]

Yeah, sounds like dew forming in the outlet. Any leakage current that causes the GFCI to detect a current difference between the supply and return paths will trip it. We’re talking on the order of micro amps…

 

[BMerrill]

Send back the 30 amp breaker and get 2 20amps.
You can then wire each pump to a seperate breaker.
The wires from the pumps are wire nutted together in the panel, so it would be easy to do this.

 

[SunnyP2000]

Send back the 30 amp breaker and get 2 20amps.
You can then wire each pump to a seperate breaker.
The wires from the pumps are wire nutted together in the panel, so it would be easy to do this.

yeap like like that i been wanting to split them up anyway ? now i have find the right 20amp breaker .

Does this look right? Lowes

 

[BMerrill]

The one from Lowes will work. HD has them as well.