Premature Failure of Hayward H250ED2C

[ajw22]

I realize that I thought you had a H250FD forced draft heater and the Hayward H250ED2C is a different natural draft model.

Universal H-Series | Hayward Canada

Hayward's pool heater saves money by being the most energy efficient solution for any pool/spa. It's designed for ultimate performance, comfort and durability while being environmentally responsible. For rapid comfort, we offer the Universal solution.

www.hayward-pool.ca

The Hayward H250ED2C is no longer listed on Hayward CA website.

If you replace the heater I would give the Universal H Series heater a try.

The indoor air requriements for your H250EDC as similar to what I posted above....

 

[JamesW]

Copper typically does not turn green like that except under specific circumstances.

Typically, the copper goes from shiny new elemental copper to a brown patina.

The green might indicate high humidity, corrosive chemicals or maybe electrical currents.

 

[JamesW]

For a new heater, you can use a different model and provide air by use of a air intake duct using 3-inch PVC pipe.


Direct Air Intake Duct with 3-inch PVC Pipe (Indoor Installation)

For indoor heater installations where combustion air supply might be insufficient, the MasterTemp® Heater is certified for a direct air intake duct using 3-inch PVC pipe.

If outside air is drawn through 3” PVC duct directly into the heater, PVC pipe can be installed in accordance with the following requirements:

The air intake opening MUST be installed at least 1 ft. above the roof line or normal snow levels for free air flow.

The Category I or III exhaust vent termination cap must have at least 3 ft. minimum vertical clearance from air intake duct.

(See diagram on page 24, and table 5).

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/heaters/mastertemp/manual/Manual-MasterTemp-472592-English.pdf

 

[MarkHoop]

It looks like you have a lot of iron in the water, but that would not cause corrosion.

Overall, I do not see anything yet that points in any specific direction.

Thanks James. My thoughts are that the issues that I see with the bypass valve would be either chemistry or incorrect materials. Since I am comfortable with how I have addressed the chemistry of the pool I, simply by default go with the latter.....rightly or wrongly and something that I know will not gain me much traction with the manufacturer. I just want to make sure that I am turning over all the stones.

 

[MarkHoop]

For a new heater, you can use a different model and provide air by use of a air intake duct using 3-inch PVC pipe.


Direct Air Intake Duct with 3-inch PVC Pipe (Indoor Installation)

For indoor heater installations where combustion air supply might be insufficient, the MasterTemp® Heater is certified for a direct air intake duct using 3-inch PVC pipe.

If outside air is drawn through 3” PVC duct directly into the heater, PVC pipe can be installed in accordance with the following requirements:

The air intake opening MUST be installed at least 1 ft. above the roof line or normal snow levels for free air flow.

The Category I or III exhaust vent termination cap must have at least 3 ft. minimum vertical clearance from air intake duct.

(See diagram on page 24, and table 5).

View attachment 535963

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/heaters/mastertemp/manual/Manual-MasterTemp-472592-English.pdf

It would be quite simple for me to install a simple 10"x10" vent immediately behind the heater on the wall in order to provide "more" combustion air. I also think that inadequate combustion air would show as soothing on the burner tubes when and if I break down the heater even further. That being said, still unsure how we explain the oxidation I am seeing internal to the flow path of the heater.

 

[JamesW]

To me, this copper corrosion points to an environmental issue.

 

[JamesW]

Electrical corrosion seems like a possible explanation since you have internal and external corrosion.

Stray currents could affect internal and external metals.

Do you have any unusual electrical equipment within 1,000 feet of your property?

 

[JamesW]

 

[MarkHoop]

Electrical corrosion seems like a possible explanation since you have internal and external corrosion.

Stray currents could affect internal and external metals.

Do you have any unusual electrical equipment within 1,000 feet of your property?

James,

No changes in the neighborhood over the 33 years we have been here. Would an electrician be able to measure the different potentials of the equipment in the shed. And again I wonder if there is any benefit of bonding all the equipment in the building or could I be making it worse by doing that?

 

[JamesW]

Would an electrician be able to measure the different potentials of the equipment in the shed.

Maybe, maybe not.

It depends on if there is anything like a stray current and how knowledgeable the person is.

It might be a DC current, but if things are tied together through the grounds, the potentials equal out and it can be hard to get a good read on anything.

And again I wonder if there is any benefit of bonding all the equipment in the building or could I be making it worse by doing that?

It might help, it might not help and it might make things worse.

If there is a stray current, bonding might help, but it depends on what is causing the current and what happens when everything is bonded.

It might cause more problems and it might not do anything.

Overall, the problem seems to be environmental, but it is not obvious what the cause is.

 

[JamesW]

The copper should develop this brown patina, which is oxidized copper compounds that create a protective layer.

Green corrosion indicates a very corrosive environment.

Green usually means exposure to water and chemicals or exposure to water/humidity and electrical stray currents.

Something has to be driving the corrosion.

Corrosion is the loss of electrons from the elemental copper causing the copper to go from 0 to +1 or +2.

 

[JamesW]

 

[JamesW]

This brass valve looks like new, but the copper tubes are corroding with a green copper compound being formed, so it seems very strange why one is like new and the other is in bad condition.

Electrical would probably affect the valve and gas line as much as the heat exchanger unless there is a reason why the electrical is only pulling electrons from the heat exchanger.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

AHEM!!! (coughs and clears throat loudly) … this issue has not been discussed -

Sorry, I use a pH down powder that is cast over the surface of the water. A typical addition would be 1-2 cups and this might be done once every 3-4 weeks

Dry acid is sodium bisulfate. The bisulfate anion eventually breaks down into sulfates. Sulfates, at high enough concentration in water, can cause all sorts of corrosion problems and could possibly explain the internal corrosion damage you are seeing. Sulfates are also exceedingly bad for SWG cell plates and most of the SWG manufacturers warn consumers not to use dry acid.

This could be a mix of problems - bad water chemistry and stray electrical currents. I would suggest that you bring in an electrician who works on pools and see what it would take to get everything bonded. Unfortunately Canada and the US treat bonding and grounding differently.

 

[MarkHoop]

View attachment 535967

I am just foolish to throw another $1500 at another HX without first determining what the issue is

 

[JamesW]

Hello, I had a new Hayward H250ED2C installed in 2019. The HX leaked in 2020 and was replaced at cost by Hayward. No warranty as they claimed that this was a "water chemistry" issue.

Since this seems to be a reoccurring issue, I would want to try to figure out why it is happening before buying a new heater or a new heat exchanger.

 

[JamesW]

Can you cut out a section of the copper tube and show the inside?

Can you show the whole heat exchanger?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

That green copper you see is basic copper carbonate (CuCO3(OH)). It is caused by excessive moisture buildup similar to how the Statue of Liberty has a green copper patina covering it. So I think you have a mix of problems going on here - bad water chemistry from sulfates, excessive humidity and moisture buildup possibly from bad air flow, and potential galvanic corrosion caused by improper electrical setup (no bonding).

It is indeed a bad idea to throw money at this problem until you figure out these causes. I have a gas heater on my pool that literally sits out in the elements all year long and I have none of these issues. Granted, I live in a desert where it is very dry but my setup is similar - no check valve, everything is properly bonded/grounded, and water chemistry is balanced.

 

[JamesW]

 

[MarkHoop]

That green copper you see is basic copper carbonate (CuCO3(OH)). It is caused by excessive moisture buildup similar to how the Statue of Liberty has a green copper patina covering it. So I think you have a mix of problems going on here - bad water chemistry from sulfates, excessive humidity and moisture buildup possibly from bad air flow, and potential galvanic corrosion caused by improper electrical setup (no bonding).

It is indeed a bad idea to throw money at this problem until you figure out these causes. I have a gas heater on my pool that literally sits out in the elements all year long and I have none of these issues. Granted, I live in a desert where it is very dry but my setup is similar - no check valve, everything is properly bonded/grounded, and water chemistry is balanced.

1 - Sulfates? Could you please elaborate?
2 - Would the old and new heaters be that drastically different to cause the air flow to be this drastic of an issue?
3 - Why an issue now and not previously?
I know that I sound like a broken record but I have run my pool in the same manner and the old heater with plain Cu tubes lasted 15 years. The new one with Cupric Ni tubes seems to be being devastated. The heater is still functioning fine so at this point I don't need to replace the HX but rather just the bypass valve and components.