Practices in a Pool Store (Piercing the veil of ignorance)

[Darkside of the Pool]

Introduction: Hi everyone, probably the first post everyone will read of me. I am now sold to the BBB method, and currently in the employment of a Pool Store. I'd like to start by stating that most misdirection, as pointed out by ChemGeek (to which I bow with utmost respect, he earned it) given by Pool Stores, including me, is done out of ignorance... Let's just say that now I know that I know nothing, better than believing you know something you really don't. Our Pool Store does not embrace BBB yet and I will stipulate a few issues our customers have along with what our store would recommend, what I would now with Waterbear's and ChemGeek's teaching and of course asking for the best course of actions.

Bear in mind:
A) None (or more accurately, very few) of my customers know english, up here in Québec, Canada. Thus, although I do try to redirect customers to TroubleFreePool, Poolsolutions and The Pool Forum, it is simply not an option for most of my customers.
B) Pool Season's about 4 to 5 months tops (using heaters to prolong it that is). This means most people see few problems with Calcium Hypochlorite and Trichloro-s-triwatever. ''Most'' means some have had horrific Nightmares, especially with our ''No-Named'' Calcium-Hypochlorite (65% but larger granulars than HtH's) and regular trichloro pucks.

Water Tests:
Free of course, DPD (not FAS), pH, Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness and when required Phosphates (no need to flame me on this one, I know... Natural Chemistry seems to be very persuasive on my superiors), Cyanuric Acid, Iron, Copper...

We have ''standards'' (Please, if anyone can link to the thread where ChemGeek shows the standards shown in the industry are worthless with a letter sent about that 486 pool study, I'd be grateful), that we tend to make our customers ''reach'' in order to have a ''balanced'' water. Inside those we do not adjust parameters.

PH: 7.2 - 7.8
Standard speech is that a balanced PH allows chlorine to work. Sodium Carbonate rises it (PH+) and Sodium Bisulphate lowers it (PH-)
I instead tell that a lower PH helps Chlorine works and that a higher PH prevents Corrosion. Aeration can rise PH.

Free Chlorine: 1 - 3
Standard Speech does not precise anything on that matter.
I ask what type of chlorine is used / If pool was stabilized. Adjust my speech accordingly

Alkalinity: 80 - 120
Standard Speech is to keep it in the afforementionned range so that PH doesn't go off balance. PH will drift up if alk is up, down if alk is down. Acid Column myth.
I say it is a buffer. Don't ajust it as long as it is higher than 60 and lower than 200. I did not test the myth of the acid column personally yet, so I still suggest it (shame).

Calcium Hardness: 150-300
Standard Speech stipulates it is no longer needed on Aboveground Pools without a heater, SWG or a Nature 2 System (sigh...). Otherwise we almost always target 150 when it is lower and do nothing if higher. Droning here.

Phosphates: less than 125 ppbs
Standard Speech says to test for it if an algae problem is recurring. Also test as soon as a spa saltwater generator is involved. Standard Ocean Spa Technology procedure (allied with Natural Chemistry... one wonders...)
I like my job so when it comes to it I test it (so I keep it), BUT, I write the results in PPM instead of PPB, and stay honest with my customers. Few buy the 60$Can a jug.

[Edit] This is no longer true. We do not test for phosphates on a regular basis anymore: In fact, if no other explanation, like overstabilisation, happens, phosphates or no, we tell the customer it is important Free Chlorine doesn't fall to 0 ppm. The test may be made to extend the time it takes for a pool to turn green, but the pool never forgives! (This even lead to a SWCG sale ) [/End Edit]

Cyanuric Acid: 30 ppm
Mostly not tested.
Tested everytime Dichlor is used in a spa as main chlorination. Results traumatizing. Trichloro pools also yield interesting results, see later in Problem-Solving.

Others are seldom tested, depends mostly on what is our customer's problems.

Problem Solving:

Note here that standard procedure is to ask the customer for the most informations we can about the said problem. We often make sure the customer takes easy steps to be sure of the problem's nature. Especially true with Well Water, often ridden with surprisingly high amounts of Copper / Iron / Maganese. I have nothing to say against the Pool Store's methods for these problems. This area of the business we did have decent informations on.

Algae-Ridden Water
First, ''balance'' your water parameters (PH, Alk, CH). Then Shock (75% HTH Supershock pouch or Chlorine at hand if granular / liquid) and on the next morning, pour 1 liter of Polyquat 60% (HtH again). Works mildly because polyquat somehow stop the algae from spreading while the pool haven't chlorine in it.
First, test for CYA. If none is present, Shock using Dichlor (people are surprised because Dichlor is solely a spa product here) until a set amount, depending on Pool Size was used. Test thrice a day, oTo must show another color than yellow, if it falls, add more. Use other type of chlorine to shock afterward. If Cya is over 9000 (read 100), I strongly recommand a partial drain.

Cloudy-White Water
Here, some questionning is in place, but most of the time it comes to dead algaes. Standard procedure: Clarifier. Got a fancy one that goes in the skimmer to help it do its job. Micron thing... no comment
I check more deeply for the source. Often there is a Calcium buildup (thanks Calcium Hypochlorite for the souvenir) over my poor customer's sand. combined with what you guys calls ''Channeling'', calciums goes back into the pool, and it turns white. I suggest a clarifier if patience is not an option, but tell them their filter will catch on.

Time's running out. Please give me your advice on these practices. Will post more later.

Oh, and:
But, if you do find someone who knows pools, and is not trying to load the Monsanto's entire 1998 chemical output into your trunk . . . well, then it's worth the extra bucks. Just keep in mind, what's worth money is not what's in the bucket, but what's in the dealer's head . . . and heart.
-http://www.poolsolutions.com/tips/tip05.html

Will put it in sign

 

[JasonLion]

Compare all that to our recommended levels and you will find that every one of those is different than what we recommend, though a couple of them are close. None of what you listed is going to cause significant problems unless the pool has a SWG, then there are likely to be issues.

 

[thecanuck22]

Introduction: . Thus, although I do try to redirect customers to TroubleFreePool, Poolsolutions and The Pool Forum,

That seems like a sure way to get fired......
If it was your business would you be sending people to these forums? If so you would not be in business for long, chemical sales are big business. I am sure your employer would not be happy.
Have I sent people here, heck YEAH! BUT they are from outside of our customer base and being given bad information from there current store, those are the only two 'conditions' I require before i refer them here, otherwise its, " a bottle of this, a bucket of that...that'll be $$$ "

PS i think this is in the wrong forum.

 

[waste]

Welcome to TFP!!

(in French that would be Les la bon ton roulette {kind of })

:bowdown: You are doing what the 'in the industry' folks here are attempting to do

We know it's hard to balance the need for $ v.s. the desire to to things right, even if it means less chemical sales!

I firmly believe that your approach is what's best for the pool industry, as a whole!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chem geek]

(Please, if anyone can link to the thread where ChemGeek shows the standards shown in the industry are worthless with a letter sent about that 486 pool study, I'd be grateful)

Thank you for the compliments.

I believe the link you are looking for is the one on Certified Pool Operator (CPO) training -- What is not taught since that sums up many of the misconceptions in the pool/spa industry. In the Chlorine/CYA Relationship section there is a link to the Pinellas County, FL Pool Study 1992 (1994) of 486 pools and my letter to a key manufacturer about that study. Though the essence of what I wrote is still valid, there are some minor modifications or subtleties that are now better understood.

As Jason wrote, many of the levels you quote are not what are recommended here on this forum. I suggest you read the Pool School to learn more about what is recommended. The "why" for many of the chemical recommendations is described in the CPO link above.

Richard

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

First, thank you Jasonlion, for linking me the recommended levels.

Second, Thecanuck22, I appreciate your concern for my well-being. But when I was hired they expected me to become an expert in the Pool/Spa domain. It started by studying U.V. (Delta), Ozone (Del Ozone) and mineral magic dispensers (EcoSmarte), found out the industry will mislead in order to sell. Now, we're stuck with pressures from Natural Chemistry, but my superiors do not buy it (pun intended, they won't buy Phosfree for themselves either). I give solutions to my customers based upon which products I have to offer, tell them what my products really are and try my best so they do not get Pool Stored too hard. I even use my day off to train some of them, doing some field work. Our company thrives on a sterling reputation and leading my customers to this oasis of truth and knowledge is the way I choosed to earn their trust.

You know, best way to show you cast the littlest shadow is to open the light?

They plan on the long term, and best way to do that is to play on our companie's reputation.
And although it ain't deep technical matter, It was indeed sensitive enough to go into the deep end?


Waste: I only try making the world 1% better. If everyone did that, the world would be a paradise.

Finally ChemGeek, with the utmost respect, the problem with the industry is that the very vast majority will accept what they are taught without questionning (refferring to Dungeon and Dragon Rules, a target willing to believe you gives you a circumstance bonus to your bluff check). Simple questionning and experience, alone, without your guidance, would already have done wonders for our customers... but people with shiny diplomas tell us a pool will be perfectly fine with trichloro pucks all year'long and we swallow that BS with a huge smile. During my fieldwork, I noticed a few things like:

Phosphate doesn't do a darn thing.
Chlorine is a perfectly legit algaecide.
And way better at killing algae.
Nature 2 is an excellent Placebo.
There is such a thing as too much CYA.
There is such thing as not enough CYA.

Even as I discovered those facts, I needed proof, something to support my sayings. Well, ChemGeek has the methodology to make valid claims. Although he only faced (as far as I know) an EcoSmarte Rep, oh and those responsible of the very course that should make swimming in America's public pools safer through an E-Mail, each time he advances a concept he does so with a methodology that is valid and supported with evidences. His posts, his researchs, and his sources (not to forget many other contributors, like PoolDoc, Waterbear, and so many more of you guys) put some weight to my claims.

Proofs on the field validate the rest.

But where others see a threat, I see an opportunity. People at large should be made aware of the wealth of informations the industry are witholding. But Pool Stores have to choose a side. Either with their customers who are waking up and shoveling the tons of BS they were buried in, or with the companies that greases their paws and lie to them.

Our company WILL choose the path to integrity. I do believe this is the sole path to our continued existences.

(Waste, in english, what you wrote is: ''The (plural) The (feminine gender) Good your Caster...'' Next time try: ''Bienvenue à la piscine sans problèmes!'' )

 

[thecanuck22]

It would be nice to be so righteous with customers, problem is they are not your customers. The problem, from the standpoint of a pool store owner (which i am not, but work as though i am), is that once those 'customers' truly do find out how to maintain there pool themselves with help from TFP, then it will be off to the big box stores for their chemicals, whose prices your employer cannot compete with, sure he/she will have gained the trust by 'showing they cast the smallest shadow' but at the end of the day trust is a tough thing to monetize, and doesnt pay the bills. Thats fine if you derive a very large percentage of your profit through service, like i am sure waste does with his comment, but otherwise its suicide. Heck, if i didnt get an employee discount i would be getting my stuff as cheaply as possible, here i come Home Depot and Canadian Tire, see you later pool store, i dont need your advice or your quality/more expensive chemicals anymore.
When you are "tell(ing) them what my products really are", are you really telling them that the PH + is really washing soda, that Alkalinity increaser is really just Baking soda, that the Pool Soft Supreme is really just Borax and that you can use bleach for your sanitizer so everything we have you can get at Wal-mart for MUCH cheaper? Are you?
Darkside as long as you are being up front and honest with your employer about exactly what and where you are sending his customers, and he completely understands by coming here himself, then great, i am glad it works, this place is where everyone who owns a pool or spa should come. Honestly if thats the case then i am jealous i wish i could tell people to come here and read and learn to truly understand there water chemistry, when i am done here I will, but for now they have to find it for themselves.....

btw, do you own a pool or a spa?

 

[PaulR]

There is a pool shop near me where they told me the truth about CYA, and came out and showed me how to take care of my pool and spa myself. I recommend them to local people who ask, and I buy my acid and 12.5% liquid chlorine there. When my Polaris has a problem, I go there. It's true I am not constantly buying dichlor or MPS (for the spa) but the only reason to go to the other nearby pool store is that my favorite place doesn't stock Taylor test kit refills.
--paulr

 

[waste]

I agree with tc22's assessment!

But, when I move to Maine, I plan on having my own pool service business and I plan on 'shooting myself in the foot' by being honest with whomever partakes of my services I sincerely want to empower pool owners to be able to do all they can without having to rely on my services (the good of the more v.s. the good for just me - it's an ethical thing ) I'll be a bad business person, but I'll have happy customers who trust me and will hire me to repair their pools/ equipment and will tell their friends about me.

However, I go next weekend for an interview with a condo/ cabin complex which has 4 pools and a hot tub - they sought ME out! If I land this, it will probably end up being a full time job (I'll do the pools and then do some unit maintenance or housekeeping - I'm very good at either )

This will provide me the financial base I need to support my home, while still allowing me to run my 'side' pool business - and gives me an 'in' to other hotel/ commercial opportunities

Sorry for blabbing about myself so much

 

[anonapersona]

Well, most of us do love convenience, so any store that could sell all the things I needed for my pool at a fair price that meant I did not have to go to 3 sites for stuff, and could do a proper test, would get my business.

 

[reindeerboy]

Here is my take on this being a POOL OWNER myself and dealing with our local PB.

I agree a bit with all of you, but not everything. I would rather have a business be up front with me than to decieive me into buying Crud that I dont need! Seriously, I will continue to be that PB customer in purchasing services, some products such as LC and some others as my local pool business has a spring sale to help them generate additional income.

When I first started to work with them, their sales associates had not a clue what I was talking about and filled me full of BS about things that I really didnt need. Now that really ticked me off. :grrrr: I dont like being given a bunch of BS advice.

This to me is a serious issue when it comes to being square, honest, and up front with all people. I deal in customer service for my agricultural farmer customers that I deal with everyday and in no way do I feed them a line of BS to try and get their business. I feel that people in general will read right through that mess. By truely beleiving in what I do as an agricultural loan officer and providing awesome services, sound advice, and outstanding products, that I will get that prospect/customer or current customers business. I really get fired up about things like this. Think about it people, how may times have we all seen Tick poor customer service that left you really mad.

If we all would just learn to treat each other with the kind of respect that we all deserve, then just think what we all can acheive. Sorry about the rant, but it truely tics me off when people are not square and up front with me. I ALWAYS am with my customers and have been doing my job for over 12 years. I feel that my reputation in the community continues to grow because I provide that outstanding customer service that is supported by our products that act like tools for me to help my customers get their desired results. That people is what it is about. In the end, you will not only grow your business, but you will be able to sleep better at night knowing you did your job the best that you could each and every day.

Again, sorry about the rant, but I really had to get this off my chest. Whewheeh, I feel better now.

Have a fantastic weekend everybody! I am currently sitting outside, firpit going, whatching my kids swim at 930PM, and having a cold beer! Ahhhh, life is good people.

 

[CaOCl2]

Darkside,
Lots of the advice given on this forum is not applicable to the Québec market (borax is not available, bleach is not cheaper than cal-hypo, supermarket bought bicarb is not cheaper than the pool store, the borax and HCl combo is not less expensive than the Optimizers of this world, cal-hypo won't raise the CH "too much").

Being bilingual you may easily find different perspectives on pool care over in Europe (emphasis on filtration rather than disinfection, methods to minimize chloramines, methods for lowering CH for example). From the Québec Ministère du Développement Durable you'll find excellent documentation on pool operation and water testing (they mention specifically to raise the FC level to compensate for CYA in their 2005 document)

But no, you can't work in a pool store and direct your customers to the supermarket for their chemicals, nor recommend levels outside "industry standards" because you saw that on an Internet forum.
-the price comparaisons often stated here does not apply in Québec;
-your employer must stand behind his employees and their advice, he is ultimately liable;
-you're directing your customers to use products not labeled and/or designed for pool use (outside the residential pool universe this is a big no-no);
-your customer may be a commercial pool owner (regulatory red flag) or may just have bought a water heater last week (warranty liability) so you must follow the "industry standards" or the Q-2, r-18.

Ocean Technologies is simply the Natural Chemistry distributor for Québec.

 

[waste]

Chad, it's very nice to see you again! :-D

You know where I'm coming from

 

[reindeerboy]

You too Ted! Been watchin ya here and there and just wanted to give you, Richard, Jason, and all the mod squad a quick beer glass raise!

Take care buddy!

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

Lots of the advice given on this forum is not applicable to the Québec market (borax is not available, bleach is not cheaper than cal-hypo, supermarket bought bicarb is not cheaper than the pool store, the borax and HCl combo is not less expensive than the Optimizers of this world, cal-hypo won't raise the CH "too much").

True, true and true again. Having to winterize pools also means CH ain't raising THAT MUCH either, so I still recommend Cal-Hypo if someone need something cheap and doesn't mind diluting it in water beforehand.

But no, you can't work in a pool store and direct your customers to the supermarket for their chemicals, nor recommend levels outside "industry standards" because you saw that on an Internet forum.

Then, again, true. But it is my right to question our practices. Also, I do not adjust some water parameter because it ''Might'' help. I simply state what the parameter does, and what would be needed to adjust it. Besides, honestly telling what my product is never actually made my customer go ''Oh then I'll buy it at Wall-Mart!''. Our products are often more convenient. Simply being honest.

Well, most of us do love convenience, so any store that could sell all the things I needed for my pool at a fair price that meant I did not have to go to 3 sites for stuff, and could do a proper test, would get my business.

-your customer may be a commercial pool owner (regulatory red flag) or may just have bought a water heater last week (warranty liability) so you must follow the "industry standards" or the Q-2, r-18.

Again, I bow before your wisdom. I never ever gave ''corrected information'' to Public Pool owners. I even actually sold one of them (hugh!) some Phosfree...

I feel that my reputation in the community continues to grow because I provide that outstanding customer service that is supported by our products that act like tools for me to help my customers get their desired results. That people is what it is about. In the end, you will not only grow your business, but you will be able to sleep better at night knowing you did your job the best that you could each and every day.

Amen.

Thecanuck... I must say I admire your point of view on Loyalty and trust over the employer-employee relationship. You are right on a great many levels. I don't want to betray the company I work for. There must be a way to maintain our integrity and profitability (guess that's the word). I will remain level-headed, the company that hires me pay me a salary, least I can do in return is to rake in a bit of profits. But we don't have to be a canal delivering the BS from the industry to our customers' mouths.

And no, I do not own a pool nor a spa, but I deal everyday with people desperate about the state theirs are in because of Trichloro / Dichloro / Overconfidence in Nature 2... you name it.

 

[4JawChuck]

I can concur on the price and availability of some chemicals available in the Canadian market;

In general,

-Cal Hypo (pool shock) is cheaper than any form of liquid bleach product by bleach content comparison.

-Borax is impossible to find in large sizes useful for home pool maintenance (although I have not tried Costco yet), baking soda is much cheaper and readily available everywhere.

-Canadian Tire appears to have better selection and pricing than even Walmart or any of the US big box stores on a regular price basis, the Walmart nearest to me does not even carry Calcium.

-Muriatic acid is always in the "paints" section of the store to avoid proximity to bleach.

-Good test kits are hard to find, only one retailer here had the Taylor CK-2005 kit on the shelf and I was advised strongly that this kit was for pool operator professionals only and it was not required (thanks, I'll be fine).

I have had varied experience with pool store recomendations as to maintenance, most ask what method I use to maintain the pool and embrace the BBB method as an advanced operator technique. It appears to me that most people do not understand pool maintenance and the pool store owner/assistant has to decide how best to serve his customers depending on their level of competancy, i.e. if you appear to have little understanding you will be pointed to the pucks and algaecide and if you appear advanced you will taken to the industrial size individual chemicals.

Hope this helps other Canadians.

 

[diverman57]

i have to disagree that pool stores can't recommend BBB and compete with big box stores.
my local pool store knows what i am doing and realize its a very good method. i can but
liquid shock (12.5%) for $3 a gallon from them and muratic acid for $6 a gallon, and they
sell baking soda in 50 lb bags. i can't remember the price on the baking soda as 50 lbs
lasts me for years. the point being, i can't beat the pool store prices anywhere else, so
they are capable of competing, if they just want to.

 

[chem geek]

-Cal Hypo (pool shock) is cheaper than any form of liquid bleach product by bleach content comparison.

Though Clorox bleach is expensive ($2.49 Canadian) at Canadian Tire, their Likewise 2x Concentrated Bleach is $0.99 for 2.85 liters (3/4 gallon or 96 ounces) which is a very good price.

If I assume that the bleach is 6%, then this would be equivalent to getting 1 kilogram of Cal-Hypo of 65% for $3.63 Canadian. The 2.85 liters of 6% bleach is equivalent in Free Chlorine (FC) content to 273 grams of 65% Cal-Hypo. What is the best available pricing for Cal-Hypo (at what %) in Canada?

 

[CaOCl2]

18 kg of 65% at $37 CDN is a good deal I found.

 

[chem geek]

Wow, that's a lot cheaper than Cal-Hypo at Leslie's in the U.S. at $76.04 for 25 pounds which is $3.04 per pound or $6.71 per kilogram compared to your $2.06 CDN per kilogram.