Possible arrangement for remote draining?

[Fuldo]

I've been working toward having more control over my pool in my absence, largely to avoid the need to get someone to intervene for me when I'm away. I've finally got to the point where I can monitor my pump performance, SWG performance, pool water level and pool water clarity. All that helps greatly. The remaining thing that often needs intervention is adjusting water level, especially draining water after major storms so common in Florida.

I'm thinking about adding a remote control valve on my drain port that's now a manual faucet. This would allow me to be control it remotely and simply use real-time camera monitoring of my water level as my feedback. I was thinking of using a Wzye smart switch that would power a powerpack that would power a valve. This would allow me to use my present home automation system for this purpose and avoid the need for a separate system and app. I thought an irrigation valve might work but they're not recommended for this type of service and they are typically installed below ground. There are other styles of control valves I could use but they're typically more expensive and I don't know how reliable they are. Taking this one step further I could also add a second valve that would connect my home water supply to the pump plumbing so I could back-feed it to add water when needed.

Is this a reasonable approach? Can standard plastic irrigation valves be mounted above ground and would they survive the Florida heat and sun? Any other methods I should consider?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doug,

Does your pool not have an overflow port??

Jim R.

 

[tim5055]

First, when dealing with the auto fill side remember to insert an anti siphon valve of some sort so pool water can not be sucked back into the house potable water system. These are generally required anytime a potable and non-potable water system are connected.

As to the on/off valve, I would look at automated valves intended to shut off the whole house water supply in case of a leak. I know there are several out there that work on Z-Wave systems meant to shut off teh house water supply when a sensor detects a leak.

 

[Fuldo]

No Jim, unfortunately no overflow port. I wish it did have one! This pool is gunite and probably 20 years old, overflow ports seem to be a fairly recent development. Adding one from scratch would be difficult considering the gunite shell and the area around the pool.

However, you got me thinking. I have a pair of ports for spray jets that I seldom use and don't need. I just used one of the ports to mount a makeshift water level indicator. It may be possible to find one or both of those lines and repurpose at least one of them as an overflow. The bottom of those ports is about 1 inch higher than the optimum water level. You can see one of these ports with the makeshift device in this photo.

Thanks for your support and your support of this forum, I know how active you are.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doug,

I kinda of like the idea of re-purposing an existing line. I'd like something that does not rely on something turning it on or off, if possible.

If the water gets too high, gravity takes over and drains it down. When the water drops below the port, it obviously stops draining.

Nothing to turn off or on.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fuldo]

Doug,

I kinda of like the idea of re-purposing an existing line. I'd like something that does not rely on something turning it on or off, if possible.

If the water gets too high, gravity takes over and drains it down. When the water drops below the port, it obviously stops draining.

Nothing to turn off or on.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Me too Jim, self limiting in theory would avoid the need to drain except for major maintenance. I think I'll dig around those areas and get a feel for how the plumbing is and its elevation. I'd need to run a line under my screen room wall and footing and make certain the line is dropping in elevation the entire length. I'd also need to run it out far enough to break-through the existing lawn but I think there's one place that could be done. Avoiding existing plumbing and my internet cable may be a challenge.

 

[Fuldo]

First, when dealing with the auto fill side remember to insert an anti siphon valve of some sort so pool water can not be sucked back into the house potable water system. These are generally required anytime a potable and non-potable water system are connected.

As to the on/off valve, I would look at automated valves intended to shut off the whole house water supply in case of a leak. I know there are several out there that work on Z-Wave systems meant to shut off teh house water supply when a sensor detects a leak.

Thanks for your comments Tim.

I was aware of the anti-siphon requirement and actually looked at some irrigation valves with built-in devices to meet that requirement. I looked at some whole house valves but they are more complicated and require an interface and app that I don't presently have. They are also considerably more expensive than simple solenoid valves and I wonder if they would be as reliable. Also, many of that style of valve is designed to work with compatible sensors and force automatic shutdown in case of leakage or power failure. The overfill drain that Jim mentioned may be possible and probably best/simplest, at least as draining is concerned. Draining is much more frequent than filling and is slower, adding water would be nice but would probably only be needed a couple times a year when I'm away so maybe it's not worth the effort.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doug,

Keep in mind you can siphon a pool when draining also.. I know from an unwanted experience, that if you have a garden hose in a pool and you disconnect the other end from the hose bib and drop it on the ground, you will soon have a lot less water in your pool, whether you wanted too or not...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Fuldo]

Me too Jim, self limiting in theory would avoid the need to drain except for major maintenance. I think I'll dig around those areas and get a feel for how the plumbing is and its elevation. I'd need to run a line under my screen room wall and footing and make certain the line is dropping in elevation the entire length. I'd also need to run it out far enough to break-through the existing lawn but I think there's one place that could be done. Avoiding existing plumbing and my internet cable may be a challenge.

Update:
I finally got a chance to probe underground near the spray jets. It was confusing because neither jet was a standard dead end, both were attached to a pair of 1-1/2 inch PVC lines. This didn't make sense to me considering there are only these two jets on this feed line from the pump. Regardless, I was able to cut and block one of the jet supplies and attach that jet port to a discharge line that makes its way under the cage footing and out to a lower elevation that's at the edge of a garden area. I didn't need to deal with the lawn at all but I did need to cut my way between two large hedge plants with shovel and reciprocating saw. The job was rather straight forward and cost only $25 in materials but it was messy and time consuming. After the install the drain worked great and there's a "water trap" under the footing that will likely help keep small critters such as snakes from trying to crawl up the line. It turns-out the bottom of the port is mid-height on the tile border, perhaps the ideal water level. I could raise it 1/2 inch or so by placing a special cap on the port but I don't see a need.

Special thanks to Jim R for asking about an overflow drain and giving me the incentive to pursue this.

A couple of pictures below of the work in process.

 

[setsailsoon]

Fuldo,

Don't know why so many pools in Florida have no over flow hooked up. Every pool I've seen recently is the same way and that's how all the pools in my development were done including the last few built in 2017. Doesn't make any sense at all since we get so much heavy rain that fills it completely up many times each year. Here's how pool owners are dealing with the issue:

• Many use the knock-out in the skimmer and run a piece of PVC to a drain. The knock out is at the mid point of the skimmer and works fine so long as there's an easy way to get it outside the paved area.
• I added a 3/4" tee to the discharge of my pump discharge and ran it to a french drain I installed between lots. It currently has a manual 3/4" quarter turn valve but I plan to add a standard sprinkler valve and actuate it with my automation. The 3/4" side stream lowers the level to normal in about an hour. Could also be opened with a home control system. Eventually I'll use a wifi level control signal to open the valve.
• Several PB's have some kind of level control system that costs $2K. Seems to use a vertical loop in the pipe at the pump equipment skid to control a waste stream from the pump discharge.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fuldo,

Looks like it will work great..

Good Job,

Jim R.

 

[Fuldo]

Fuldo,

Don't know why so many pools in Florida have no over flow hooked up. Every pool I've seen recently is the same way and that's how all the pools in my development were done including the last few built in 2017. Doesn't make any sense at all since we get so much heavy rain that fills it completely up many times each year. Here's how pool owners are dealing with the issue:

• Many use the knock-out in the skimmer and run a piece of PVC to a drain. The knock out is at the mid point of the skimmer and works fine so long as there's an easy way to get it outside the paved area.
• I added a 3/4" tee to the discharge of my pump discharge and ran it to a french drain I installed between lots. It currently has a manual 3/4" quarter turn valve but I plan to add a standard sprinkler valve and actuate it with my automation. The 3/4" side stream lowers the level to normal in about an hour. Could also be opened with a home control system. Eventually I'll use a wifi level control signal to open the valve.
• Several PB's have some kind of level control system that costs $2K. Seems to use a vertical loop in the pipe at the pump equipment skid to control a waste stream from the pump discharge.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

Chris,
Maybe it's the fact that many Florida lots are rather flat and level and having an overflow drain might not be possible or could maybe back-up after a deluge. I'm fortunate that although I'm in a large development I have a large corner lot and the lot slopes away from the house on all sides. I probably have an elevation of two feet to the side street, far more than what's typical in Florida. It does seem strange that a PB wouldn't add an overflow drain in Florida when the site allows one. Like you I was planning on an automated waste valve at the pump but the overflow line makes so much more sense and requires nothing after installation.

Like you I'm planning on adding a remotely actuated solenoid fill valve to add water to the pool. I seldom need to add water but it would be nice to be able to do it remotely when away and I suspect the cost of materials would be minimal. I may pursue that this coming week or so now that I'm in the mood. The only downside of that is a potential valve failure that could leave the water supply on. That could be very costly here in Florida with the exorbitant cost of potable water.

 

[Katodude]

My overflow is kind of weird too. It is in the skimmer and goes out about 6 feet just into my yard and drains into the soil. The could have gone another 15’ and it would have a clear drainage to an area 3’ below the yard. I just seems silly and short sighted to terminate the drain directly into soil. For now I put an irrigation box on top so it has some room dump water. At some point I will extend the pipe to where it has a clear dumping point.

 

[Fuldo]

I decided to implement the remote fill system while it was on my mind. I was able to repurpose the second spray jet to a fill line. I ended-up tapping into the water line that fed a faucet used for filter cleaning and feeding it into the end of the spray jet line at the equipment pad. I also capped where that line was originally fed from a multi valve. I used a rain bird anti-siphon irrigation valve fed by a Orbit transformer that is plugged into a Wyze plug. Fifty feet of low voltage landscaping cable was used between the transformer and valve. A shut-off was placer in the feed line in case of failure and pipe couplings were used to connect the valve for easy repair or replacement in the future. The spay head was repositioned so it sprays downward into the water. I can turn the fill water on and off with the app on my phone and can see the water filling on my camera to monitor the fill process and ensure that the water stops flowing when turned off. This will help avoid the need for friends to intervene when I'm away.

This is a very convenient, fairly simple and inexpensive method to fill the pool. I highly recommend it for those who may have some unused or unneeded ports on their pool. I actually had another port I could have used as well, an abandoned pressure port that appears to have been used for a cleaner at some point. A couple photos follow.

 

[Dirk]

Great solution! Glad to see you went mostly mechanical for the overflow and fill, instead of mostly digital. (Sorry I didn't get here sooner.) I'm an HA guy, but I don't yet trust it for my mission-critical pool stuff. The ball valve will eventually be the first to fail in your setup. They're not great for that purpose. It'll get hard to turn, and/or start leaking. Mine did both. I replaced mine with brass. If you paint all your PVC, that'll help protect it against UV. Maybe cover that entire assembly with some sort of sleeve, to keep the sprinkler and ball valves out of the sun, which should help their longevity a bit. Good call on using those unions. If that valve ever poops out, this is the better replacement, a true Backflow preventer, which can be tested periodically to make sure it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Anti-siphon is way better than nothing, for sure, but the preventer is the more appropriate part (next time). You can still use an automated valve after the preventer. Just nit-picking. Like I said, what you did is great.

 

[Fuldo]

Great solution! Glad to see you went mostly mechanical for the overflow and fill, instead of mostly digital. (Sorry I didn't get here sooner.) I'm an HA guy, but I don't yet trust it for my mission-critical pool stuff. The ball valve will eventually be the first to fail in your setup. They're not great for that purpose. It'll get hard to turn, and/or start leaking. Mine did both. I replaced mine with brass. If you paint all your PVC, that'll help protect it against UV. Maybe cover that entire assembly with some sort of sleeve, to keep the sprinkler and ball valves out of the sun, which should help their longevity a bit. Good call on using those unions. If that valve ever poops out, this is the better replacement, a true Backflow preventer, which can be tested periodically to make sure it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Anti-siphon is way better than nothing, for sure, but the preventer is the more appropriate part (next time). You can still use an automated valve after the preventer. Just nit-picking. Like I said, what you did is great.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions Dirk!

I suspect the backflow preventer you suggested would be an improvement as would as much brass as possible including the ball valve. I'd considered a number of options and decided to try the most simple and cost effective solution. My equipment pad is on the north side of the house and there' a large bush to the east of the pad so sun exposure is somewhat limited, especially close to the house where the valves are. I will look at ways to improve protection from the sun, you can see the discolored towel I wrapped around the chlorine generator to protect it from the sun. The PVC at the pad is in amazingly good condition considering it's been there for maybe 25 years. I've done some other PVC rework at the pad including stitching-in the SWG cell and I was amazed how the surfaces of the PVC pipe seemed almost like new; not discolored or chalky. I knew the PVC ball valve is likely the least durable but it should be fairly easy to replace and it did seem well built including what appeared to be Teflon seals. It will be interesting to see how it fares. I didn't really need it at all because I have another shut-off valve upstream but I wanted it there in case the irrigation valve failed, couldn't be fixed immediately and I didn't want to disable the faucet as well.

 

[Dirk]

All sounds logical to me! The preventer valve I recommended is more important when there is another valve (like an autofiller valve) down-stream of it. That's because those sprinkler valve anti-siphon components are not rated to be under pressure 24-7. But because your valve leads directly to the pool, with no secondary valve putting the anti-siphon under pressure, your choice is fine (just not as long-lasting as brass, and no way to test it).

Technically (I think), PVC is not rated to be above ground, but all pools use it that way anyway. Mine is painted, to make up for that I suppose, so I passed along that notion. But you're right, most pool plumbing does just fine, for a good long time. I tend to be over cautious (and mine gets blasted by sun, which is probably why my ball valve failed)...