pool renovation questions

[drrayb]

Hello,
We have a 16 by 32 rectangular pool with 2 returns and 1 skimmer. See picture for location of the lines and the equipment pad.


This year we were thinking of redoing the pool deck/coping because the pavers and are totally uneven/shifted all over the place.

I see this as an opportunity to update the pool a little bit. Answers/advice/opinions to the below questions would be appreciated.

1 - I always felt this pool was lacking 1 more return (maybe 1 more skimmer?) as there is a giant dead spot in the corner closest to the equipment pad. I have considered options such as:
- add a jet to the right of the skimmer (close to equipment pad) to keep water moving in a circle
- move the skimmer closer to the dead spot, and add a jet on the far wall to aim towards it
- add a second skimmer in that corner (can 2 skimmers go on the same pipe underground?)
which do you think would be most beneficial/practical to eliminating the dead spot and improving water flow

2 - there is a single track for the liner, with no trim extending above it. some kind of flagstones make up the coping and they are terrible. Can I add a metal track above it to pour a cantilevered/concrete coping? I saw in the tfp article that you cannot once there is a liner in place, but I wondered if there has been a new product/solution made since then

3 - I would like to add eventually, when the liner is changed, some pre-fab stairs in the dead-spot corner as a way into the water, and to reduce the impact of stagnancy in that spot (something like the picture below)
can this be done without having to affect the pool wall or much structural work?











Thank you in advance for your replies/advice

 

[Texas Splash]

You are asking some pretty significant design questions that may be better served by one of our field experts @jimmythegreek. We'll see if he can't help you with some of those questions next time he hops online.

 

[Bill1974]

If you are going to do anything that involves changing the liner track that's going to mean a new liner. Adding or moving a skimmer or return is going to mean pulling the liner back and probably also going to mean new liner unless it's new.

Generally it should be done in this order:
Demo of decking and coping
install new skimmers/returns/lights/steps etc
address all plumbing and electrical
install liner track
new liner can be installed
install coping
install decking

I recently did a similar project, I only made the mistake of not replacing the return fitting before a new liner was installed. Found out they were cracked when I replaced the plumbing lines. Lucky I found someone to bale me out and was willing to to replace the returns only because the line was only put in a few month earlier.

It started out as a liner replacement and replacing the coping!

 

[drrayb]

Thank you Bill!

I am not interested in changing the liner yet, so unless there turns out to be an aftermarket way to attach a concrete mold on top a single liner track, we won't do that and will use stones instead.

regarding extra returns, can I not drill through the liner and wall together in order to install a new return?

Thanks again

 

[Bill1974]

If you have a steel, poly, of fiberglass walled pool, most if not all fitting are attached to the pool wall and the liner is sandwiched between parts of the return or skimmer. There might be some fitting out there that could do what you're wanting, but I think that would be an oddball fitting and also make future liner changes a challenge.

Looks like you could just have the pavers reset to level them out. Once you change the coping stones you are pretty much in it to reset or replace all the pavers around the pool. If you remove the existing coping and find the liner track is in less than stellar shape it might mean a new liner as well. How old is the liner or how many years till you think you might need to replace it? If you are set of changing the look, I would hold off till you are going to replace the liner. And at that point you could pretty much do anything you want or budget allows. Also take a good look at your pool lines and make sure they are all in good condition. Mine line were starting to fall apart on the inside of the flexible PVC so, I just replaced everything. Last thing I want to do is have to take up newly installed pavers to fix something.

 

[jimmythegreek]

If you have liner track under the coping stone you can pour cantilever with the liner still in. It's tricky but I've done it. Takes a lot of bracing and extra track Ts. The liner must be moved out of the way for a skimmer or return to go in. It's sandwiches between the liner for a water tight fit

 

[drrayb]

Thank you Jimmy. What is the role of the t's? To keep the track in?

Also...i watched some videos yesterday and had this idea, for which I think I'm going to get chewed oud lol. What if I cut a 4 by 6 hole in the liner to permit the front wall component to go in, then patch it before putting the face plate?

 

[Bill1974]

If you are willing to deal with a patch have at it, but the older the liner, the less likely a patch is going to hold over time. If you have a newish liner I would cringe at doing that. If you just need to last the season I might take that gamble. For a return I think a round cut out would be better

 

[jimmythegreek]

The Ts are the wire braces that hold the form to the face of the pool. They use the liner track for support. Not enough can cause a blowout or often bows in the form and a wavy edge. If you just want to add a return you can lower water level and pull back liner on a warm day with little issue if liner is still on good shape and flexible

 

[drrayb]

I've called 2 pool companies about adding a return. one said they would not be able to do it unless they replace the whole liner, because they can't warranty the work.
Another said he could do it, but we run the risk of metal shavings from coring the steel wall getting stuck behind or cutting up the liner. He wants to see the excavated pool deck first.

I figure I could just keep one of those worksite magnet sweepers under the drill while he is working and we should be good, practically.

 

[Bill1974]

The holes for returns are generally not circles, they are a shape the allows the fitting through but not allow it to rotate. Makes tightened on to the wall easier. I had mine replaced after the liner was done (my mistake), it was a round hole to start with but they needed to use a sawzall to make it larger and shaped to the fitting. keeping the metal chips from getting between the wall and liner is a challenge with most methods. If it's excavated they can see what condition the pool wall is in. Or find out there concrete or something behind the pool wall. Then its an hour or two job.

 

[drrayb]

The holes for returns are generally not circles, they are a shape the allows the fitting through but not allow it to rotate. Makes tightened on to the wall easier. I had mine replaced after the liner was done (my mistake), it was a round hole to start with but they needed to use a sawzall to make it larger and shaped to the fitting. keeping the metal chips from getting between the wall and liner is a challenge with most methods. If it's excavated they can see what condition the pool wall is in. Or find out there concrete or something behind the pool wall. Then its an hour or two job.

Sorry Bill I don't understand entirely. Yours was also done with the liner in place? And you're saying if the wall happens to be concrete its much easier?

 

[drrayb]

Update: the handman has removed the interlock, and the coping. Under interlock is well compressed screening. Then a 4 inch wide styrofoam panel. Then the steel pool walls. The styrofoam sits about half inch deeper than the steel.

He is going to replace all the flagstone coping with fresh mortar or whatever the sauce is. He is cutting it all the same width so we can put a nice expansion joint behind it.

My question is, what goes on top of the styrofoam? More of the adhesion sauce and then the expansion joint is vertical behind that?

Or is there a horizontal expansion joint on top of the styrofoam?

Any other suggestions based on the pics? Also what do i put in that crevace in the corner?

Thank you!

 

[Bill1974]

My returns were replaced with the liner pulled back. I lowered the water level about 6" below the returns and the liner was pulled back. It took a few calls to find someone to do it, these were one of the few that said they would do it only because the liner was less than a year old. The hole in the steel wall wasn't sized for a Hayward return fitting, so it had to be made a larger to fit the Hayward fitting and still align with the hole already in the liner. Keep debris from falling behind the as a hole is cut or enlarged is pretty easy with some tape and plastic and a little care when cutting. If you're adding a return should be easier if the liner is still new and pliable. Pull the liner back, cut the hole for the return fitting. A hole saw is probably the cleanest and easiest way. Factory holes many times are not round but shaped to prevent the fitting from rotating as the backing ring is tightened. If you give yourself sufficient room to work on the back side for two channels locks it's pretty easy to tighten the locking ring. Then add water, install face plate. If you have not done this already might be a little more challenging now that it's cold and you're a bit further north than me.

 

[drrayb]

Thanks Bill, we opted not to do an additio al return at this time. With proper chlorination that corner was actually ok. Also it will cost me far less to just run the pump 10-20% faster, than this job and its possible issues.
We will also plan to move the ladder to the opposite side, to be 'washed' a bit by the shallow end return, rather than sitting stagnant all by itself.

Do you have any comment/opinion on the post above with the coping and foam?

Thank you!