Pool Plans Finally...

[TexasRain]

One thing I see is I don't think you need Sceen Logic with an Intellicenter. That is usually for the Easy Touch

 

[Newdude]

While some people do like them, many have found the in floor cleaners to not perform to expectations or have seen problems down the road from moving parts and the penetrations of the shell. They are very expensive compared to a robot that will clean better.

My phone isn’t linking well at the moment but please search for ‘Ozone /UV further reading’. They are both a lot of magic and not any real benefit, as well as another costly addition. They serve a purpose in small scale (hot tubs) and public pools (high bather load) but serve no purpose on everything in between.

Wait.... I can do it the hard way.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

UV Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Davwil]

If salt generated chlorine is out then is my only and best option chlorine tablets?

 

[JJ_Tex]

No, the preference here is liquid chlorine. The reasoning is that all forms of solid chlorine have extra ingredients that make them solid, mainly CYA (trichlor) and calcium (cal-hypo).

Both of those ingredients are important to pools, but harmful if you get too much from continued use of pucks. Once CYA (also called stabilizer) gets too high it will cause you to need more and more chlorine sometimes referred to as "chlorine lock" in pool store lingo. If your calcium gets too high you will get white scaling on your surfaces, and you are going to have a lot of surfaces in that pool. The only remedy for both of those is to drain and refill your pool, which can be costly and a pain to deal with on a regular basis.

Lugging liquid chlorine for a pool that size would be an absolute beating as well. I would suggest looking at a stenner pump that is essentially a tank for liquid chlorine that automatically dispenses it to your water. I have little experience with them, but I'm hoping others can add their experience with them.

Update - I just searched and found this on stenner pumps:

Stenner liquid chlorine pump - How to choose and install

CHLORINE (LIQUID CHLORINE OR BLEACH) INJECTION SYSTEM Overall comment: if you can use a salt water generator (SWG), you should. Bleach is harder to do. Do you really want to use bleach? Will a SWG (generates bleach in the pool) work for you? If you have a variable speed (VS) pump, then...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Newdude]

Also, the SWG -erroding-soft-Limestone debate will rage on long past all of us. However, a few things are known and undisputable

1) a non salt pool can become 5% the salt content of seawater (1500ppm)
over time due to the natural breakdown of chlorine
2) a 'salt pool' is 10% the salt content of seawater (3k of 30k ppm)
3) soft Limestone does not like any kind of water

Up to dispute :

1) does going from 5% of seawater to 10% really make a difference?

 

[joepaiii]

Well there’s the plan but the girl on the motorcycle is a mistake/bonus from the pics on my phone...lol. Any constructive comments or suggestions ...on the pool?

Hello - I got feedback from Pentair to shoot for 4 lumens per sqft of pool... you have 2200 sqft or something crazy big like that so - that is 8800 lumens. Each intelibrite 5g is 1000 lumens. So 5 may not be enough brightness for some of the weak color output like red or if you are going with a really dark plaster color. Of course it will light the pool but I would try to get as many as you can in there... going to be amazing.

 

[Davwil]

After reading all over this site, I became a huge fan of SWG's. I would love to go that route but all of the pool people I've talked to say I'll regret it. However, they all say if I can find a neighbor in my area also using well water successfully using SWG then they wouldn't have a problem with it. Apparently Zars Pools, the largest pool builder in the San Antonio, started using SWG several years ago, but ran into major issues of corrosion etc., and now will only use chlorine. I've talked to them and others, and for some reason the well water situation is a major issue.
It's disappointing. but definitely helpful, that most people on here don't recommend UV and Ozone. I'm at a loss as to why all the pool builders around here are recommending them for use along with chlorine (unless it for the money...duh).
I'm going to keep looking and talking to others to see if I can find anyone using SWG in my area, but I'm getting to the point where I need to make a decision and move forward to get this thing finished. SWG seems like the least hassle and I really don't want the pool upkeep to be another 24/7 job...
The Stenner pump seems like a viable option, but based on the links provided and what I've read so far, I'd be dealing with a LOT of liquid chlorine. Unfortunately, with this COVID mess, chlorine in larger quantities was hard to get.

Also, I'll look into the lightening situation. It did seem like very few lights to me as well, but I wasn't sure. I did add some spa lights under a couple of the water falls, but I'll definitely check on the others.

I do want to say everyone on here has been very helpful...thank you.
I'll keep you posted as everything progresses.

 

[cowboycasey]

You could do 2 SJ60 plus and be fine with a SWG, just split the plumbing and run them in parallel.. If your coping wears out in 30 years from salt water just have it replaced but I think it will be just fine.. don't use flagstone or sandstone or limestone, use a hard travertine and call it a day..

2 of these would pump over 6 pounds of chlorine a day

CircuPool RJ-60 PLUS Saltwater Chlorinator | Discount Salt Pool

www.discountsaltpool.com

 

[gingrbredman]

for some reason the well water situation is a major issue

Just when I thought I've read all the excuses PBs use for not wanting to put in SWCGs, especially in Texas, I see a new one. Corrosion, equipment, flagstone, they all have been used, but now we have a new one, it has to be the well water. But the interesting thing about this site, is the people that come here to learn about how to maintain a trouble free pool are not hearing that from the people who have used the different kinds of systems. I read an interesting quote this morning here, and I'll paraphrase... "What do we have to gain by selling you a SWCG?" Nothing.... the only thing anyone gets out of helping people make solid recommendations is just wanting to help people with their new pools, and use the collective experiences they have all learned to do this.

One other thing I have learned from my own experiences, as well as joining in on conversations with others who have built and maintained pools, is the builder can build a pool, but almost none of them are experts in the water. That's why this site is here, to help others learn and join the conversation about a trouble free pool. Don't be afraid of what the PB tells you, listen to those here , especially about the water and how to maintain it. SWCG, or liquid chlorine, the choice is really up to you, but pick it based on the experiences you find here, or real life examples of pool owners, not just what the PB tells you or is trying to sell you.

but all of the pool people I've talked to say I'll regret it.

Were these all pool builders you talked to? I'm not sure of the total amount of active members here, but do not recall reading any regrets from adding a SWCG. Maybe some just want the traditional "chlorine pool", and that works too, but not sure I've read about regretting it.

most people on here don't recommend UV and Ozone

I wouldn't say "most people" I would say just about everyone here. Maybe there is one or two who were pushed into this system by their PB and think it works, but do not recall any single educated pool guru on here who would recommend any of this "all fluff and no stuff" systems like UV, ozone, or frog packs. At least for sure none of the people you should be listening to.

Really looking forward to this cool project and see what you decide on!

 

[Davwil]

As I may have mentioned before, after contracting and supervising all of the initial rock work, patios, landscaping, bar, etc., I decided to go with Build Your Own Pool. And, much to their dismay, I'm going to go for two Pentair IC60's, since it looks like I'll be using Pentair Intellicenter and their 140 filters. BYOP sent out the specs today to various subs to get bids, hopefully I can find one experienced in SWG.
So far the rock we've selected hasn't been softer limestone. Some of the decks further from the pool might be softer but any rock so far that touches the later is very dense, heavy and hard (we know this from the weight, and from cutting, shaping and drilling). And, as cowboycasey suggested, I might go with travertine coping. At this point, just to minimize any possible destruction...I'm thinking that we will seal the rock coping, any rock that's below the water line, the top and bottoms of the rock slabs that form the waterfalls, the swim-up bar, etc., with a clear, semi-gloss epoxy sealer. I've seen this used on a couple of driveways and after a couple of years of weathering and heavy use, you can't tell there's any wear at all. It doesn't leave a slippery surface and only a slightly wet look, which should be fine around a pool. I can get the name if anyone is interested.
I've asked the people I'm dealing with at BYOP to put me in touch with anyone that has had corrosion or damage issues from SWG, but like everyone on here says, it seems to always be "they heard of several people" or "another contractor told them" or one pool builder or another used to use SWG and had issues so stopped"...
Questions:
1) Has anyone used epoxy sealers...good...bad results?
2) I notice the recommendation to use a SWG sized for 2X the volume of the pool. If my pool is 100,000 gal. would two 60,000 size units be sufficient?
3) BYOP has recommended two identical independent systems, which seems like the way to go. I'll wait to see what the bids/recommendations are, but does this sound right?
4) I want to see what the cost of the in-floor cleaning system runs. But I'll also have outlets set up for robots since the electrical outlets are already available (10 ft from pool, etc.). I think I'd need three or 4 outlets. There have been comments that people have had problems with penetrations of the shell with the in-floor systems. I haven't seen or heard about those comments. Is that an issue?

 

[joepaiii]

As I may have mentioned before, after contracting and supervising all of the initial rock work, patios, landscaping, bar, etc., I decided to go with Build Your Own Pool. And, much to their dismay, I'm going to go for two Pentair IC60's, since it looks like I'll be using Pentair Intellicenter and their 140 filters. BYOP sent out the specs today to various subs to get bids, hopefully I can find one experienced in SWG.
So far the rock we've selected hasn't been softer limestone. Some of the decks further from the pool might be softer but any rock so far that touches the later is very dense, heavy and hard (we know this from the weight, and from cutting, shaping and drilling). And, as cowboycasey suggested, I might go with travertine coping. At this point, just to minimize any possible destruction...I'm thinking that we will seal the rock coping, any rock that's below the water line, the top and bottoms of the rock slabs that form the waterfalls, the swim-up bar, etc., with a clear, semi-gloss epoxy sealer. I've seen this used on a couple of driveways and after a couple of years of weathering and heavy use, you can't tell there's any wear at all. It doesn't leave a slippery surface and only a slightly wet look, which should be fine around a pool. I can get the name if anyone is interested.
I've asked the people I'm dealing with at BYOP to put me in touch with anyone that has had corrosion or damage issues from SWG, but like everyone on here says, it seems to always be "they heard of several people" or "another contractor told them" or one pool builder or another used to use SWG and had issues so stopped"...
Questions:
1) Has anyone used epoxy sealers...good...bad results?
2) I notice the recommendation to use a SWG sized for 2X the volume of the pool. If my pool is 100,000 gal. would two 60,000 size units be sufficient?
3) BYOP has recommended two identical independent systems, which seems like the way to go. I'll wait to see what the bids/recommendations are, but does this sound right?
4) I want to see what the cost of the in-floor cleaning system runs. But I'll also have outlets set up for robots since the electrical outlets are already available (10 ft from pool, etc.). I think I'd need three or 4 outlets. There have been comments that people have had problems with penetrations of the shell with the in-floor systems. I haven't seen or heard about those comments. Is that an issue?

We had an acrylic epoxy sealer on our stamped concrete deck and it is definitely slippery with bare feet and water on it. I would stay far away from do that to coping stones. The sealer they used for me was Artcrete AS3000. I would stick to something like Dupont's saltwater sealer for the coping stones. Has to be done every 2 years or so but will help. Or just don't do anything and see what happens. I don't think salt causes issues, I believe that some rocks fall apart and some don't.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Questions:
1) Has anyone used epoxy sealers...good...bad results?
2) I notice the recommendation to use a SWG sized for 2X the volume of the pool. If my pool is 100,000 gal. would two 60,000 size units be sufficient?
3) BYOP has recommended two identical independent systems, which seems like the way to go. I'll wait to see what the bids/recommendations are, but does this sound right?
4) I want to see what the cost of the in-floor cleaning system runs. But I'll also have outlets set up for robots since the electrical outlets are already available (10 ft from pool, etc.). I think I'd need three or 4 outlets. There have been comments that people have had problems with penetrations of the shell with the in-floor systems. I haven't seen or heard about those comments. Is that an issue?

On question #1, I know we did not seal our travertine and have had no issues. I have heard limestone can be a bit softer. I would just try an experiment if you can get a sample of the limestone. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with water, add some salt to it (just so you can barely taste the saltiness... to me it is a faint hint of saltiness, almost sweet tasting), then half submerge the sample so that it is half in the water and half out of the water. Let is sit for the remainder of your construction and see if you see any damage. If you can get 2 samples, I would also do a control where you do the same experiment on another piece with just tap water.

On question #2, 2 IC60's doesnt seem enough for a 100k gallon pool. The ratings for the SWCGs assume you are running at 100% output 24/7. So that means you would have some wiggle room in the non-summer months, but come summer you are going to be running 24/7 and probably at 80%+ output. That also means the coating on the cells which makes the chlorine will be used up faster and you will have to replace them more often. I would be looking for a 3rd IC60 at least to give you some wiggle room so you can run the pumps less often and/or not at full output for the SWCGs.

I'll let others comment on your other questions.

 

[Newdude]

I would be looking for a 3rd IC60 at least to give you some wiggle room so you can run the pumps less often and/or not at full output for the SWCGs.

Hands down..... 2X oversize. Although I’d gladly say that 180k worth of SWG (3 ic60s) is plenty close enough at 1.8X.

the initial investment will be high, but consider that 1 gallon of 10% bleach gains 1 PPM FC in a 100k gallon pool so 4 gallons a day of bleach will be insane. Talk about ‘lugging jugs’. Some of y’all need 1 gallon a week. OP needs 28.

. There have been comments that people have had problems with penetrations of the shell with the in-floor systems. I haven't seen or heard about those comments. Is that an issue?

Yes. Not everybody has leaks, but the more holes you poke through the shell, the greater the odds are over time. Plus the heads themselves break like any sprinkler head would except you can’t just walk up to them in the yard.

 

[joepaiii]

On question #1, I know we did not seal our travertine and have had no issues. I have heard limestone can be a bit softer. I would just try an experiment if you can get a sample of the limestone. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with water, add some salt to it (just so you can barely taste the saltiness... to me it is a faint hint of saltiness, almost sweet tasting), then half submerge the sample so that it is half in the water and half out of the water. Let is sit for the remainder of your construction and see if you see any damage. If you can get 2 samples, I would also do a control where you do the same experiment on another piece with just tap water.

On question #2, 2 IC60's doesnt seem enough for a 100k gallon pool. The ratings for the SWCGs assume you are running at 100% output 24/7. So that means you would have some wiggle room in the non-summer months, but come summer you are going to be running 24/7 and probably at 80%+ output. That also means the coating on the cells which makes the chlorine will be used up faster and you will have to replace them more often. I would be looking for a 3rd IC60 at least to give you some wiggle room so you can run the pumps less often and/or not at full output for the SWCGs.

I'll let others comment on your other questions.

I like you idea about testing - but from what I have read it is more about the salt water getting on the rock, soaking it down and then evaporating. Eventually the remaining salt can force apart pieces/layers of flagstone.

I wouldn't worry too much about salt and stone... I think most of the problems with stone around a pool would happen with or without the extra salt and its just a scape goat for some builders to get out of repairs.

 

[cowboycasey]

I would not put infloor cleaning in what so ever... Grab a robot and call it a day, when it dies, fish it out, get it fixed or grab another one... every month we have someone show up asking why those systems are not working or why the heads are exploding, and every head introduces a way for water to leak out of the pool...

With a VS pump some run 24/7 anyway so you should have no problem with 2 IC60 and Pentair uses the same exact cells for commercial pools.. The recommendation of 2x SWG was so you can run a 1 or 2 speed pump the least amount of time to get the chlorine in the pool the fastest time and shut of the power hungry pumps... So with a vs pump running as low as possible to turn on the SWG your good to go

The idea of 2 identical separate systems is interesting.. you could have 1 SWG on each system, run both systems 24/7 and adjust the SWG the same on each.. it would cost 2x as 1 system (along with powering 2 systems/pumps 24/7) but if 1 went down you would still have 1 up... it would be a better overall system instead of trying to do everything with 1...

Here is the commercial install manual for 2 IC60's

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/pentair-pool/commercial/manuals/sanitizers/intellichlor/IntelliChlorComSys4%20(520971).pdf

 

[jimmythegreek]

I wouldnt bother with infloor, in complex pools they dont work that well. With the shape and size of the pool you would need 2 robots to reach everywhere so keep electrical in mind. Good commercial grade sealers are expensive and work well, but they are maintenence items but necessary. I would approach this pool as a commercial scale sanitizing situation and depending on cost factors you could use a commercial ozone system along with liquid or swg. They are pricey tho. Otherwise you want 2 independent systems operating at the least. Remember if one goes down or something happens a pool that size is a nightmare to clean and sanitize once algae starts. I assume you have while house emergency generation, make sure the pool load essentials are factored in.

 

[Davwil]

Im currently waiting on bids but at this point I’ve sourced enough travertine tile that I’m going to use for coping. That should negate the SWG concerns (claims of rock damage) without the need for sealing and resealing.
I’m definitely not opposed to using a couple of robots. I’m sure they will only get more sophisticated and efficient.
I don’t have a bid yet but I’m pretty sure I could buy robots on an ongoing basis if needed a come out ahead. I was concerned about them constantly getting hung up on the bar stools like the Polaris units I’ve had in the past.
As I get the recommendations and bids back...hopefully in the next couple of weeks, I’ll share those recommendations.
I do have back up systems for power outages but I’ll make sure the pool pumps are covered.
im also looking at decreasing the depth of the deep in from 10 to 8 feet to see what difference that makes in the overall gallons to help with pumps and sanitation. I had looked at ozone but it doesn’t get many positive comments on here. I’ll keep researching.
thanks again for the comments and input.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Reducing the gallons if practical is a good way to lower overall pool work. Ozone is worthless the way PB know it. What I'm talking about is commercial ozone, used in water parks and big pools such as yours. They are expensive, smaller units are upwards of 10k and can be north of 100k for large units. I wouldnt bother if your going travertine and your not overly concerned on the density of the stone you have. I would seal all the stonework regardless, any limestone or sandstone material may feel dense but is a porous stone compared to others

 

[Davwil]

I’m still working on the pool. The ice/snow storm hit us hard and delayed everything. I have an electrical bid, a gunite bid and next week should have a steel and plumbing bud, which I need to get started.
Based on all the input and suggestions on here, I’ve decided to can the in floor cleaning system and go with robots. I’be sourced travertine tile for the coping and I’m going with SWG and maybe a commercial Ozone generator (I have access to one that came from a water park at a very reasonable price).
As soon as I can get the project underway I’ll post pics and more details.

 

[jimmythegreek]

Make sure to research the ozone unit if you plan to actually use it. It has its pros and cons. The big con is that it actually needs MORE chlorine than usual as it eats up contaminates and burns free chlorine as it's working. It also needs constant circulation and you need water turnover as much as possible where standard pools dont. There are different units, corona discharge and lamp systems, find out details as they need maintenence and the injectors do too