pool bonding and electrical

[jonnysteals]

So my motor is a 2hp 2 stage pump that is within 100(around 85ish feet) of my breaker box. I plan on run 3 12 gauge wires in conduit to the pump. I will be using THHN wire as it will be outside. Here is a chart of my pumps motor spec. I will be running a new feed from the panel box to the pool pump and I will use a 20 amp gfci breaker.




I also have a convince outlet thats there now that was powering my intex pool. This is a 15 amp outlet that I used the same 12 gauge THHN and its on a gfci breaker. This is a separate 15 amp breaker than what the ump will use. I will place the new pool s this outlet is farther than 6 feet away but closer than 20 feet. Planning on placing this 7 feet away from the pool as we will use this for our radio.

Bonding is where it gets a little confusing. Bonding consists of running an 8 AWG solid copper "halo" around a pool (18-24" away from pool and buried 4-6" deep) and connecting it with copper lugs and split bolts to metal legs or metal plates of the pool in 4 different places even spaced around the pool. Then you bond the water using a special inline fitting or metal plumbing that comes in contact with the water. Then you bolt the copper wire to the motor lug. Then you coil up the remainder of the wire (a couple of feet coiled into a 12" wide coil is ok) and bury it 4-6 inches underground.

QUESTION 1: Do I need a grounding rod? I was planning on adding one to be safe but most people don't seem to add one?

QUESTION 2: To bond it to the pool legs I plan on using these. It says my pool has galvanized steel uprights so would I simply just drill a hole on 4 uprights and put a bolt into the bonding clamp, I saw some people mention online they just attach with a self tapping galvanized screw? Looks like I will need to do this to 4 legs. My manual has nothing in it about being pre drilled or having bonding points?
Burndy Lay-In Lug Clamshell - Electric Plugs - Amazon.com

QUESTION 3 Now to bond to the water it seems most electricians use the plate that goes into the skimmer box that you have to drill into. The advantage of this is that no water flow will ever be effected but the thought of causing a leak is worrying. Like this.

Burndy Water Bonding Ground Kit 1 pk - Ace Hardware

www.acehardware.com

I am a little nervous about drilling into a brand new pool and found something that will thread on the the skimmer box. My worry with this is it will impede the flow of water and if some debris gets past the skimmer baskets it will get stuck in the bonding plate internal. Any suggestions on which water bond method to use? Molded Products 25810-850-000 Pool Defender Econ Union with Stainless Steel Pool Bond - Walmart.com

QUESTION 4 I plan on adding salt water down the line. Most of the systems I looked at like CircuPool will come on when the pump timer kicks on. Do I need a special timer since my pump is two stage? Can I Simply just attach the salt water controls to the same lugs on the timer as the pump or do the make a timer specific for this? From what I read it seem most just has the standard pool timer and there is a toggle switch on the pump that will allow you to alter the stage. Any reason not to get a smart pool pump timer so i can dork out over it?

DEWENWILS Outdoor Smart Wi-Fi Outlet Box, Heavy Duty 40A 120-277 VAC 2HP Wireless Controller Timer Switch for Pool, Water Heater, Compatible with Smart Phone, Alexa, Google Assistant, UL Listed - - Amazon.com

DEWENWILS Outdoor Smart Wi-Fi Outlet Box, Heavy Duty 40A 120-277 VAC 2HP Wireless Controller Timer Switch for Pool, Water Heater, Compatible with Smart Phone, Alexa, Google Assistant, UL Listed - - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

or jsut stick with the tried and true mechanical timer?

Intermatic T100 Series 40 Amp 125V 24-Hour SPST Mechanical Time Switch with Outdoor Enclosure T101RD89 - The Home Depot

The T100 Series Mechanical Time Switch has proven it can stand the test of time. These dependable time switches can handle electrical loads up to 40 A per pole and allow for up to 12 ON/OFF operations

www.homedepot.com

Thanks so much for all the help. I am a planner and must fully understand every aspect before I will attempt the install.

 

[ajw22]

Convenience outlet should be at least 10’ from water.

AGP Electrical Restrictions

• ajw22
• Apr 7, 2019

Bonding loop should not be grounded. Bonding and grounding are different.

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

SWG flow switch should be a secondary safety device. A timer controlling that the SWG is powered only when the pump is running.

 

[jonnysteals]

Convenience outlet should be at least 10’ from water.

AGP Electrical Restrictions

• ajw22
• Apr 7, 2019

Bonding loop should not be grounded. Bonding and grounding are different.

Bonding vs Grounding

Electricity and water don't mix. Learn a few basic tips how to keep your family safe when dealing with electricity around your pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

SWG flow switch should be a secondary safety device. A timer controlling that the SWG is powered only when the pump is running.

I read this and thought if using gfci I could get closer?

Keep your distance! Swimming Pools and Receptacles. Chelan Home Inspection | NCW Home Inspections, LLC

Keep your distance! Swimming Pools and Receptacles. Electricity and water can be a bad combination. So it is no surprise that when it comes to “in-ground” swimming pools there are some rules that come into play that specific to the

www.ncwhomeinspections.com

• Receptacles for pumps and motors must be located between 6 and 10 feet from the pool walls, and they must be GFCI-protected and locked.
• Outlet receptacles for general use can be no closer than 20 feet from a pool or in-ground spa if they are not GFCI-protected, and no closer than 6 feet away if they are GFCI protected

http://www.mtpleasantwi.gov/DocumentCenter/View/390/Pool-Wiring-2011-NEC

680.21(A)(1) Branch circuits for pump motors shall be in rigid, intermediate or non metallic conduit or MC cable. UF cable is not allowed because the equipment ground must be insulated. Exceptions apply where wiring is on or within buildings. Flex is allowed at the pump motor.
680.22(A)(1)Receptacles for pump motors between 6’ to 10’ from the pool wall must be locking type, grounded, single outlet and GFCI protected.
680.22(A)(2) Other Receptacles shall be at least 6’from the pool wall and GFCI protected.
680.22(A)(3) At least one general purpose receptacle from 6’ to 20’ away is required for pools at 1& 2 family homes and other dwelling units.
680.26 Perimeter bonding and water bonding is required for permanent aboveground pools and inground pools. A minimum #8 AWG copper wire (ground ring) must be installed around the pool 4” to 6” below grade, 18” to 24” from the pool and connect to the pump motor, heater and the pool water

Will not out grounding rod thanks for clarification

 

[ajw22]

There are different versions of NEC code adopted in different municipalities and some areas have no inspections or required codes. I suggest you find out which version of the code applies to you.

 

[jonnysteals]

my town is on NEC 2017 which says the same 6 feet if gfci. Another question Can I run 1 20 amp circuit and power both the um and the convenience outlet from that?

 

[ajw22]

my town is on NEC 2017 which says the same 6 feet if gfci.

Then you got it correct.

Another question Can I run 1 20 amp circuit and power both the um and the convenience outlet from that?

No. Pump should be on a dedicated CB. No CB should be loaded to more then 80% of its rating. So 20A breaker max load is 16 amps. There is no way to know that what is plugged into an outlet will not overload the circuit shared with a pump.

 

[Randrx2]

So my motor is a 2hp 2 stage pump that is within 100(around 85ish feet) of my breaker box. I plan on run 3 12 gauge wires in conduit to the pump. I will be using THHN wire as it will be outside. Here is a chart of my pumps motor spec. I will be running a new feed from the panel box to the pool pump and I will use a 20 amp gfci breaker.


View attachment 132145

"DANGER...DANGER Will Robinson!!!!"

I am scratching my head at their chart. I think they listed the amp values for 230V instead of 115V. I think you may have a 230V pump based on you asking about running three wires, but wanted to be sure.

Typically:
- for a 115 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 14 amps per hp
- for a 230 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 7 amps per hp

At 115V:
- a 1HP motor typically draws 16 amps
- a 1.5HP motor typically draws 20 amps
- a 2 HP motor typically draws 24 amps

At 230V:
- a 1HP motor typically draws 8 amps
- a 1.5HP motor typically draws 10 amps
- a 2 HP motor typically draws 12 amps

Also, is 85 feet the straight line distance? How far from panel to bottom of trench? How far from bottom of trench to pool motor? Add all of that into the distance. You are pretty close, I would upsize the wire. If this is a 2HP, 230V pump, then 12 amps X 1.25 = 15 amps. So that requires 14AWG wire. If you upsize to 12AWG then you are fine with the distance you described.

Also, you need THWN. Outdoor conduit underground is a "wet" location. Most wire that you buy at the big box stores is THHN/THWN. But double check.

I would not add a receptacle to this circuit. Just run a separate circuit.

 

[jonnysteals]

"DANGER...DANGER Will Robinson!!!!"

I am scratching my head at their chart. I think they listed the amp values for 230V instead of 115V. I think you may have a 230V pump based on you asking about running three wires, but wanted to be sure.

Typically:
- for a 115 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 14 amps per hp
- for a 230 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 7 amps per hp

At 115V:
- a 1HP motor typically draws 16 amps
- a 1.5HP motor typically draws 20 amps
- a 2 HP motor typically draws 24 amps

At 230V:
- a 1HP motor typically draws 8 amps
- a 1.5HP motor typically draws 10 amps
- a 2 HP motor typically draws 12 amps

Also, is 85 feet the straight line distance? How far from panel to bottom of trench? How far from bottom of trench to pool motor? Add all of that into the distance. You are pretty close, I would upsize the wire. If this is a 2HP, 230V pump, then 12 amps X 1.25 = 15 amps. So that requires 14AWG wire. If you upsize to 12AWG then you are fine with the distance you described.

Also, you need THWN. Outdoor conduit underground is a "wet" location. Most wire that you buy at the big box stores is THHN/THWN. But double check.

I would not add a receptacle to this circuit. Just run a separate circuit.

I think your amp figures are for a universal motor as I am pretty sure the pool pump is an induction motor which draw significantly less. All above ground pool pumps are 110V. My 2hp pool pump will draw 14 amps max but because its 2 speed I plan on running it on low as much as possible which is only 3.5 amps. I am really close to 100 feet as I moved the pump a bit farther away so will run 10 AWG THWN instead. Its only an extra 40 bucks and at this point it simply isn't worth cheaping out on. thanks for all the help

 

[Bama Rambler]

"DANGER...DANGER Will Robinson!!!!"

I am scratching my head at their chart. I think they listed the amp values for 230V instead of 115V. I think you may have a 230V pump based on you asking about running three wires, but wanted to be sure.

Typically:
- for a 115 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 14 amps per hp
- for a 230 volt motor that is single phase, you figure 7 amps per hp

Ahhh, the proverbial head scratching over pool pump motors.
They play games especially with above ground pool pump motor HP. If you'll look on those pumps you'll see a sticker that says xx hp SPL. Basically that means to throw out the hp number. At very least it'll have a SF (Service Factor) of 1.00, and a lot of times less. I've seen them as low as SF .5. That's how they get away with a 2 hp 120 volt motor that draws 14 amps.

You'll also notice that both 1½ & 2 hp pumps draw 14 amps in the chart. So basically they're both 1 hp motors.

 

[Randrx2]

Ahhh, the proverbial head scratching over pool pump motors.
They play games especially with above ground pool pump motor HP. If you'll look on those pumps you'll see a sticker that says xx hp SPL. Basically that means to throw out the hp number. At very least it'll have a SF (Service Factor) of 1.00, and a lot of times less. I've seen them as low as SF .5. That's how they get away with a 2 hp 120 volt motor that draws 14 amps.

You'll also notice that both 1½ & 2 hp pumps draw 14 amps in the chart. So basically they're both 1 hp motors.

I did not see the SF and I was not thinking of it. Thanks.

 

[jonnysteals]

Just an update for anyone in the future. I found a water bonding kit that goes int the pump housing and will go out the stock drain hole. No drilling is required and UL listed! Amazon.com : Perma-Cast PB-AG Above Ground Water Bonding : Garden & Outdoor