Pool Automation Suggestions

[sperok]

Getting back to ctcline's original post - a more dispassionate response below:

-------- from ctcline --------------------------------------------
A few of my requirements:
- Supports wireless as pulling hardwire will be dificult
- Can conrol outside landscaping lighting
- Would allow me to take on in pieces to help reduce upfront costs
-----------------------------------------------------------------

1. We use a standard wireless bridge (obsolete DLINK DWL-G810 we had lying around) to connect the residence to the shed with the pool equipment and the Pentair Screenlogic Protocol Adapter. There are no issues with this. An iPhone or PC app in the house communicates over the LAN to the pool equipment so there is no need for a vendor-specific control panel or any wires. The savings on wiring and control panel just about pays for the cost of the Screenlogic module, so it is kind of like getting remote control of your pool for free (if you already have the iPhone or PC).

2. All of our landscape transformers are plugged into INSTEON controlled outlets. Because this is a rental property and is often (but not always) vacant during the week it was cost-effective and green to spend $45 on each of the 4 outdoor outlets for the automation. When the property is occupied the outlets are on, when unoccupied they are off. No diddling, this allows control of 3 kilowatts worth ($1.32 per hour in the CA summer) of landscape lighting, so payback is achieved when the automation has "avoided" around 150 hours of unnecessary lighting. Since the system also knows when sunrise and sunset occur, there is no need to reset the timers (ever) and no "wasted" lighting (when photcells get covered by tools & leaves).

3. This solution is very low cost and completely incremental. A Universal Devices ISY-99 is about $300. It is the "brains" of the system and controls all scheduling and sensing, as well as providing Internet-based control. The kit includes a TINY (maybe 4"x4"x1") module with an embedded controller and a SmartHome PLM for interfacing to the Insteon devices. Each Insteon circuit that you control (inside lights, outside lights, plugs, etc) adds about $45-60 for the required dimmer switch or receptacle. Irrigation modules are about $120 per 8 zones. Installation of all of this stuff is intermediate DIY (need to be able to install a light switch and configure the control application). As of right now, per the earlier comments, this device CANNOT control the Pentair pool equipment (bummer), but several smart folks are now working to overcome this. Other home controllers are available that already work, and can control Pentair, from HomeLogic, Control4 and Crestron. Each of these controllers is significantly more expensive than the UD solution, so not as affordable or incremental, but they work today. The requirement to have the dealer program these products adds significant cost and lead time - which may well pay for itself in improved reliability - depending on your skill set and diligence.

4. Pentair sells a "Lighting Module" which will allow you to do everything you need as a single vendor solution. The biggest drawback of this solution is the REQUIREMENT to bring all the landscape lighting wires (or any other wires you want to control) back to the Pentair panel. This was a non-starter for us, since the electricity was already in the walls and ground, spread over several acres and 5 electrical subpanels. Using a powerline or RF solution (like INSTEON, or UPB or zWave) was required to avoid the high cost of home run wiring. The other drawback, not learned until much later, is the lack of flexibility in Pentair programming. There is no way to implement "occupied" settings which are different from "vacant" settings, which can be important if you care to optimize costs anytime you are away from home for an extended period, and no "sunrise/sunset" capability to allow differentiated lighting features (you can't get there as easily with photocells).

 

[Guest]

Now you have my interest, Do you have any drawings that you can upload for reference? I might actually take a look at this...

Great addition to the forum!!!!

Thanks

Sal

 

[sperok]

Sal - There are no drawings, all of this was retro-fit, not new design.

Pentair Stuff: Standard Intellitouch I9 system with Screenlogic and 4 button wired spa side remote. The only thing "weird" here is that the Screenlogic protocol adapter is sitting out in the garden shed by the pool equipment and is connected to the wireless bridge, since there is no twisted pair out there. The wireless bridge connects back to the Screenlogic wireless router at the house, which is in turn hardwired to the stock Netgear Wireless Router we use for Internet Access. This is a bit of brain-damage (using 2 routers) but that is the "stock" Pentair solution documented in the Screenlogic setup guide. Any PC on the LAN (or over the Internet) can run the Screenlogic Ap to fiddle with pool and spa, and the iPhone Ap can let you fire up the spa so it is ready when you get home.

INSTEON Lighting and Controls: These simply replace existing light switches and receptacles, so there is not much to design - other than figuring our how much fits in your budget and prioritizing accordingly. All communication is over the powerline, so there are no extra wires to run. The REALLY NICE part is being able to walk out the door and press 1 button to shut down the whole house (or walk in and turn on your welcome scene). The hardest part is figuring out how to name all your circuits and then building scenes that work together. You can use the Insteon devices standalone to create limited scenes, or with the Universal Devices ISY-99 controller to build more complex logic (like "vacant/occupied"). I started small with just 4 Insteon devices to check out range and reliability with our wiring - when I found we could reliably turn lights on/off in an outbuilding (600 feet of electrical cable from the house), we bought the ISY-99 and a bunch more controls. There are now over 50 Insteon devices reliably operating across over 2000 lineal feet of wire and 5 subpanels. Smarthome technical support was EXCELLENT and customer service OFF THE CHARTS with immediate turnaround for components I ordered incorrectly and for 3 defective units (3/56 is a high failure rate though ...).

Sonos Music Controller. Some products are just amazing. Sonos is one of them - an infinite music library streamed from the Internet or from your own collection. All you need to supply is power and a wired ethernet connection to the first zone. Add as many zones as you desire just by dropping them in. I won't make this a commercial, but 4 friends of ours went out and bought Sonos after seeing it at our house. Everyone that plays with it loves it. NO RECURRING COSTS OR SUBSCRIPTIONS REQUIRED! The only "planning" you need is if you want in-wall speakers. If so, you need to wire them back to someplace in the room where you can locate a zone player, near an AC receptacle. If I cared to, from any web browser, anywhere in the world, I could see and control what's playing (but I don't). A free iPhone app provides complete control, the Sonos controller is optional.

Irrigation: Same deal - just put the SimpleHomeNet controller anyplace there is AC and run control wires out to up to 8 zones. It communicates back over the power lines to the Universal Devices Controller where schedules and logic can be set. We control a total of 61 watering zones.

ANECDOTES:

1. Guests called and mentioned politely that the LED lights on the dimmers in one of the bedrooms were so bright they lit up the room. I logged in, and turned down the LED brightness while they were on the phone (it took less than 5 minutes). They were blown away.

2. My business partners whining daughter was being anti-social one night and acting like a real pill. She did not know about any of the automation. She went in to the house while we were hanging around outside. I grabbed an iPhone and started playing music and fading lights on and off around the house, completely freaking her out. Fun party tricks.

3. The TV in the kids room is connected to a Insteon controlled plug. Do I need to say more?

4. The Internet router is on a controlled plug so that it can be power cycled every couple of days, greatly improving perceived reliability.

 

[benavidescj]

I am writing this down, thanks sperok

 

[Bama Rambler]

I use a lot of Insteon devices to control different things. They're very convenient and pretty reliable. They have a wide enough product range to cover about anything you want to control. They don't have the issues with CFL's and some power supplies that X-10 does.

Next year I plan on buying a basic SWCG and control it using one of the relay modules.

 

[4JawChuck]

Don't get me wrong, I am all for home automation. The problem is the use of "home consumer" level products being used to wirelessly and remotely control items they were never intended or designed for (commercial). Oh sure you can do it, but who is liable? The mfg for supplying a consumer level product being used for unintended purpose? The builder/operator for using the product outside its usage recommendation?

How about those proprietary communications, those are there for very good reasons...to limit liability. The "sue happy" nature of the US legal system has dictated this for many reasons, not all of them bad. If I was a mfg I would be strictly limiting the use of my products due to just this kind of scenario, I wouldn't want to end up in court because "joe dirt" closed the pool cover on little suzy from 200 miles away...or killed her cat.

You mentioned the other forums where this is discussed (I've seen them) and the underlying theme seems to paint these mfg's as the bogeyman since they don't share their protocols. Not one of these people lamenting the lack of sharing is willing to put their own personal liability on the line to do what you want...and I can tell you a disclaimer means nothing in a court of law when someone is dead because your product was used incorrectly. See what the news says about you and your company when scenes of the dead little girl floating in the pool hit the television, kinda makes the whole remote operation of a simple pool cover kind of silly in comparison. I'm willing to bet the dead cat would be bad enough.

Of course this is overly dramatic but I work in an industry where legal liability is a huge issue and misuse is common of our products (medical industry), you would be surprised what PHD level trained operators will sue for even when they have knowingly misused a product to avoid liability. Its a pass the buck type of response to the courts and no one wins and the courts typically decide on the one with the deepest pockets even when there is limited culpability.

Maybe one day it will change, I know in Canada the rules are a lot different but no insurer would cover me for a scheme such as you describe so essentially I am carrying all the risk. As a matter of fact my home insurance would become null and void if I didn't reveal it to them, exactly how do you get insurance for your rental properties using remote control home systems in the US?

...or do they even know?

I'm not being facitious or sarcastic...just realistic considering the legal climate we live in.

 

[sperok]

4JawChuck - You are right - liability is a huge issue for all manufacturers, but Pentair's existing products already expose the liability and open up new security holes. Providing an open API for HA vendors doesn't make things any better or worse. Pentair (and everyone else) needs appropriate safeguards on what they expose. In this case those of us that want automation need simple controls to turn relays on and off, there is no need or desire to expose details like parameters of SVRS pumps.

Pentair currently markets the I-Link product which exposes all the same controls. It is an older, serial technology but carries all the same risks of misuse by anyone using the provided programmatic interface.

The ScreenLogic application is highly insecure, easily reverse-engineered, and completely vulnerable to attack from the Internet. It took me less than 8 hours to decode the protocol enough to do what I need to, and to discover that a trivial script could give me the approximate location of every Pentair ScreenLogic installation in the world. Further, the weak password protection makes these installations vulnerable to attack. Keep your eyes open for an upcoming "Hot Tub Virus" ... (I am kidding about the virus, but not the vulnerability).

I talked to Pentair support about the ScreenLogic protocol yesterday - they cited "security" as a huge concern in providing an API, so they don't even understand the risks they are exposing customers to right now. Trust me on this, I ran engineering for a leading computer security company.

We are insured by State Farm. They have no problem with the pool cover implementation - we asked before doing it.

 

[4JawChuck]

I appreciate your conversation Sperok and obviously you know your stuff, I specialize in automation specifically Siemen and Rockwell so I understand what you need and want. The level that home automation products have reached in such a short time have made things only available to commercial operators a realistic and viable possibility, I applaud this trickle down tech to the home user but I worry about the ramifications.

For one I wouldn't be using any kind of open source controller over the internet without VPN access privileges at the very least, lots of ways to skin the cat as you already know and not everyone has the programming capabilities to exploit the risk areas but you yourself can...I'm willing to bet there are script kiddies looking for ways to entertain themselves on a Saturday night by making "joe dirts" life a living heck for a few days or minutes as it suits them while they hack into your video feed and have a good laugh.

I can see the Youtube video already. :lol:

Anyway, I hope you accomplish what you seek to do and if I could pry more dollars from your hands I would point you towards a market that already understands your needs and has off the shelf equipment to do what you want...3rd party commercial PLC mfg's can do what you want with robust architecture and module plug and play systems. Your already writing your own drivers...why not skip the kid stuff and go industrial quality, then all you need to do is write the control program and your done, no plastic junk that fails in two years and robust valves and controls that are expandable and have optional controllers that could lift the space shuttle if you so wanted.

I know it sounds easy to spend other peoples money but if there is one thing I have learned over the years, my time is worth something and buying off the shelf equipment thats robust and supported costs me less in the long run...maybe more up front but not in the end.

Good luck with your project, just remember those proprietary manufacturers have to cover themselves...doing that does not make them the bogeyman just good businessmen to their shareholders and the public at large. Remember your not just turning lights on and off, your interacting with the environment in a significant physical way...forgetting that is where most people go wrong and I have seen it happen to co-workers.

I use the train crossing signal analogy to people I teach in the field, imagine the problems you could create if those signals didn't work or worked incorrectly or were subject to spurious signals emanating from outerspace. Funny I know, but true in many ways...be careful.

 

[sperok]

Well said and great advice. I was shocked by the lack of security in the Pentair solution when I dug in. A VPN solution is tough to make work in this environment where iPhone or Android access is desired, and visiting users need access with minimal pain. But there is no excuse for not implementing some form of encryption and differentiating between "standard" and "administrative" user levels. Every browser out there knows what HTTPS is.

It would be great to get suggestions on leading PLC products for a couple projects we have in the planning stages. We need to do some automation for ag monitoring and pumping, and wastewater treatment that are far outside the scope of the current toys. I've just started looking into Allen Bradley, Mitsubishi and Modicom products, but this is very fresh ground for me.

Much home automation centers around UPnP devices for which I have not found support in the commercial controllers I've looked at so far. This appears to be one of the barriers to crossing between the markets.

 

[4JawChuck]

PLC or PAC control is an all or nothing solution to home automation, it is only scalable to compatible partners within the family so your stuck with one mfg or anothers system framework (Cisco is partnered with Rockwell). Of course a suitably resourced hacker could make anything work within reason but there is little reason to bother when the systems are well designed and modular which makes your life very simple.

If your based in the US, Rockwell automation would be a logical choice but everywhere else in the world Siemens is the standard. I don't really have a preference as they are both very similar...I can't comment on Japanese or other mfg's but I can say they have just copied these two companies market solutions.

For example Rockwell's ethernet/ip product would be your interface module through a password protected webpage allowing access through any browser, same interface as a common household router with similar capabilities and no eye candy so its fast.
http://samplecode.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/pp/1761-pp004_-en-p.pdf

The controller hardware and backbone would be locked and located on-site with a server computer located nearby or in the same cabinet...nothing fancy just a cheapo desktop or toaster style box is all you need. The rest is straight PLC control with scalable backbones to provide any level of automation and feedback control you could want.

The only problem is its not cheap, it costs a few bills just to get started and then you need to write the control software which requires a software license and training which is free as the companies pride themselves on putting enough information out there for the average joe to make a complete mess of. LOL! Good luck finding a hacked version of the software, these companies hunt those hackers down and prosecute to protect their market which includes the US military.

The basic premise is its simple, sack of hammers foolproof and you need a software license to access so the kids are out of the loop. We use RSA token encryption and VPN access to provide hack proof accessibility via any browser on the planet, without the token your not going anywhere and even if you somehow managed to steal one of the tokens you still need the software key to get in which would require my laptop and another layer of security+passwords.

Basically you would have to hold one of us hostage to gain access which would get you in for 24 hours and then your SOL. Totally overkill for the home user but I just wanted to illustrate what is possible with this kind of system.

Its tempting to go cheap, trust me I look at the home automation stuff and say to myself "its almost there" but for me the simplicity/reliability of the commercial PLC/PAC solutions is worth a lot to me especially when I don't ever have to look at it again for 10 years because it never fails...well maybe a power supply or UPS failure in that timeframe but the software/hardware is bullet proof. The company I work for has gone completely from custom board designs to Rockwell Automation across the board for just these reasons and I thank God everyday that they made the decision because the custom stuff was a PITA!

Not to mention it supplys me with a never ending list of cool toys to plug in and play with, my home automation system is shaping up quite nicely with a recent shipment of Knight peristalic triple pump stations. Should make interfacing the Rockwell controller with my Knight pump acid/salt solution/chlorine delivery system and PH controller with Panelview user display interface a simple process.

The hardware stuff is easy, its the software that takes the time to program to automate the system and eliminate user interfacing to just keeping tanks filled. Not impossible but time consuming.

 

[mademna63]

I have Goldline Control AQ-CO-serial and an RS232 to Ethernet Crestron QM-RMC product and can control ALL my pool/spa controls from my iphone or the WWW. I can give anyone interested the interface code.

Goldline controller PS8

Mademn63 - taport56 at yahoo.com

 

[ctcline]

I have Goldline Control AQ-CO-serial and an RS232 to Ethernet Crestron QM-RMC product and can control ALL my pool/spa controls from my iphone or the WWW. I can give anyone interested the interface code.

Goldline controller PS8

Mademn63 - taport56 at yahoo.com

Thanks for the reply. By chance have you used their wireless Aqua Pod to control your pool? I don't have Crestron.

 

[archonis]

-Hey guys

I have not posted on this site in a long time but I have been fallowing sperok on more then one site. I been thinking about the post he has been making and it bugs me a lot. I hate for someone to get the wrong idea about something and get stuck between a rock and legal issues. Sperok clearly understands the basics but is way off on something that he knows nothing about or does not understand the true internal workings. This is what we call script kiddies or white hat hackers.

Dont get me wrong here. I am not bashing anyone but I cant sleep so I thought this would be a good time to clear some things up.

1) You CAN NOT and i say again CAN NOT tie your pool cover into automation. I do not care if you have a camera on your pool so you can close the cover 200 miles away. YOU CAN NOT DO THIS!!!! STOP!! NO!! If i called his local inspector that approved this and told him if something happen to a child in the pool because the automation had a bugged out and a child was killed he will be the one sitting in court. I will put money on it that the inspector will be back out there to red tag it.

You can however get a water feature lock out for the cover that ties into the CVA to prevent waterfalls coming on and dumping water on the cover but that is about it. according to fed law you must have a turn key and push button to open and close the pool cover.

2) Open protocol, API, Home Automation - Really? Did we not forget the name of the company? let me help PENTAIR WATER POOL & SPA!! key words. POOL AND SPA! There is not one pool and spa company that goes into this and has open source. It will never happen. HOWEVER, you do have your converters that will allow you to do anything that you want it to do. Pentair has the I-Link, Jandy has theres. They will allow you to do all the basic controls. Turn stuff on and off, control lights such as the Intelibright, Turn your heater on and off, look at temp reading, change set points, whatever. Did we forget that all home automation controlers has a RS232 output? I have yet ran into a home automation controller that I could not tie and jandy or a pentair controller into. If it can send out a basic ASCII command such as # Pump=1 then it will work and no sperok, it does not need to have a computer on all the time if you use it the correct way with a home automation controller.

3) I am sick of hearing you talk about how insecure screenlogic is. If its so insecure then why are you using it to open and close your pool cover 200 miles away? Are you not scared one of your renters child is going to be in the pool and someone hacks into your screenlogic and close the cover? I think it would be you sitting in court and not Pentair.

Let me clear this up. Screenlogic is very secure. Show me some code where its not. The passwords are 128 bit enc. In fact. The password is not even stored on the relay server that you say you hacked to find the location of every adapter (if you even get passed the challenged string. The password is stored on the adapter itself. You cant even change the password remotely. You have to be at the home local to do that so for the ones who have screenlogic that uses a remote password. Dont forget it because no one change it or tell you what it is. This was done like that for a reason.

4) Pentair does not cross ship, jandy dont, hayward dont. why? they dont sell direct so there is no need to.

Like i said, I am not bashing anyone or anything. I know this site gets a lot of readers and I would hate for someone to get the wrong info. I am a pool builder and home automation installer. You cant always trust the internet for correct info.

At this time I would like to ask the site admin to close this thread.

-Mark

 

[archonis]

Sorry one more thing.

"Every browser out there knows what HTTPS is"
HTTPS is only used to get the IP address of the servers location. If you truly did your homework then you would know that the adapter is hard coded with a domain name that it uses to whois over https to get the ip address. Would you like port numbers?

Also

Renter lockout is very easily done with screenlogic. Remember that screenlogic will allow you to set what buttons you want it to show and what buttons you dont.

I have kids and i travel a lot over looking high end homes.
This is what it did.

I set everything to dont show but the spa, slide, air blower and a few other things.
My cleaner and all that stuff is set to dont show so the button is never there for someone to press.

Spa is set to a 1 hour egg timer. If they leave it on oh well. its going off on its own anyhow.
I also have a few timers programmed with screen logic there the heat command is set to off.
Yes, I also have my spa on a timer where every friday at 9pm to come on and heat to 104F

All i have is a inwall touch screen for screen logic (pentair changed it so you can no longer get into the config from this unit)
and i have a spa command. Spa command set point changes are a one time deal.

Pentair did take a look at a renters usage and delivered!

 

[Lershac]

Do you know you are posting to a thread that's over a year old?

 

[piku]

Hi All,

I have question sin regards to pool automation. Currently my pool has none, but I would like to add this as I am in the process of redoing most if not all of my pool equipment. What is a good system to look at? My dad has a Jandy system on his home, but I understand there are other systems that will do the same and for less money.

A few of my requirements:

- Supports wireless as pulling hardwire will be dificult
- Can conrol outside landscaping lighting
- Would allow me to take on in pieces to help reduce upfront costs

Thanks for any help and/or suggestions.

Chris

My new system is specifically designed for someone like you. See the link in my sig. It is capable of meeting all of your needs. Where in the country are you?

 

[piku]

Guys - not trolling for anyone, just frustrated. Sorry to come off so strong on the first post.
Sticking strictly to the facts - as I said in the original post - the Pentair product works reliably with an all-Pentair solution, or with HA partners that work with Pentair. As long as you want what they are selling, the solution is reliable. Pentair and Crestron are good companies, selling good products at premium prices.

Right, that was my main gripe with the industry as a whole. There is no "X10" for pool automation. But my system strives to be much better than X10, more like insteon But I don't think the average homeowner needs or even wants crestron style products and pricing.

The SPECIFIC criticisms that I have, as the owner of a high-end rental property, is that for the custom solution that I want it is hard to get there with Pentair, and Pentair has not been nearly as supportive as other vendors. With 25 years of software development experience under my belt, and knowing what I want to accomplish, my goal is to have a very customized and customizable system based on OPEN, INDUSTRY ACCEPTED standards. I can accomplish this with my selected vendors for lighting, HVAC and irrigation control, but CANNOT GET THERE with Pentair pool products, for the reasons given in the prior post. I would love to be corrected on the specific points raised.

I can't say how supportive they are but all the systems out there definitely seem closed and designed to get you stuck in their product cycle. I've heard this form numerous people. My system - if you want to assimilate it as part of a larger system - has a soap web service to access.

What do I want? An Ap that works with iPhone and Android phones, freely distributed (so anyone at my house can load it - not so that I don't have to buy it) that allows me as the administrator to control everything (lights, HVAC, irrigation, Sonos music system, pool, spa) and lets my guests/renters have a completely intuitive interface to USE these same systems WITHOUT the ability to screw something up. All the products selected for this project work GREAT (Sonos music player, SimpleHomeNet Irrigation, Universal Devices Controller, Smarthome Lighting) with PUBLISHED AND EASILY USED Web Apis for those willing to write code, and packaged Aps for those that want functionality out of the box. I only wish that Pentair would adopt an open interface like these others so that their quality products (and I do respect them) can be EASILY integrated without requiring a standalone computer system.

Right. Before the iphone and really the last 10 years of progress the current systems were ok, good even. Now home automation in general is lagging significantly. This is mostly because the current vendors simply aren't willing to utilize off the shelf components. That's not "professional" enough. Case in point, you want touch screens on your wall. You can

A: design and develop a small embedded solution on expensive rare hardware that in the end can't do that much because of processing power limitations. End price? $1000.
B: Buy an Android tablet off ebay for $130 and hang it on your wall, open the browser and point it at a server.

This isn't a hard choice to make!

Very specific, factual issues:

- Remote Access via ScreenLogic Connect or iPhone Ap is a CLOSED, PROPRIETARY system running through Pentair servers. This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to change the user interface to either restrict or simplify functionality for guests. Pentair's Indoor Control Panel also lacks any ability to restrict functionality. Guests have the ability to cost me LOTS of money by inadvertently changing heat and pump settings. This is real pain I have felt to the tune of over $1500 in propane and electrical costs. I have had to relocate and lock the control panel and disable iPhone access for guests as a result.

- Programming landscape lighting and watering schedules with Pentair is painful because there is no programming language. With my other controllers the built-in scripting capabilities include concepts like "sunrise" and "sunset" as well as conditional logic (if-then) for defining when to turn on lights. Pentair lacks any sort of scripting or programming language and has very primitive timers.

- Pentair cannot differentiate between a button being pressed and a button being held down - these are very useful for doing things like opening and closing a pool cover. Legally a pool cover switch must stop when released - you can't get there with any Pentair control and must have a separate switch. I've passed code with my solution only after convincing the inspector that my implementation of the cover control was at least as good as that provided by the cover vendor. With the camera on the pool I can retract or close the cover from my remote location, which is VERY HANDY when the renters don't do it.

My system doesn't do any of these things yet, but they are all great ideas that can be implemented. Unlike the current market systems you can simply install a software update online to provide these new features. The scripting language in particular is very cool but I'd prefer it to be menu driven well enough that you don't need to script.

The button press and hold thing would be fairly difficult to get to with my system, not because you couldn't do it, but because it is wireless there must be a certain amount of fault tolerance. As well some time must be allowed between command and action result. The best bet is sensory systems that detect an obstruction and reverse like the cars have in the windows and garage door openers have.

 

[piku]

Do you know you are posting to a thread that's over a year old?

Hah, I just noticed that too. I'll delete my posts but I never saw the big deal in reviving a thread.

 

[Lershac]

No no don't delete! Didn't mean that way

 

[CraigMW]

I've got a Pentair Intellitouch system with the Screenlogic module. I had many of the same ambitions you list and am COMPLETELY DISAPPOINTED with Pentair and its closed, proprietary product. Unfortunately I do not have experience with other products and cannot suggest anything better.

THE GOOD: If you are looking for something turnkey that will reliably do what the manufacturer allows it to do, the Pentair system is reasonably reliable and well supported by the pool industry. You can talk to it with your iPhone and control pool, irrigation and landscape lighting IF you stick to an ALL PENTAIR solution or work with their (expensive and proprietary) partners.

THE BAD: If you have computer skills and are looking to do a nice integration into a home automation system my experience (and I would love to be corrected) is that Pentair is operating with 1985 technologies. There is NO EASY WAY to integrate Pentair products with MODERN HA components from companies such as Smarthome (Insteon devices for lighting and control), Universal Devices (inexpensive home control) and SimpleHomeNet (Irrigation and Sensor Automation). You CAN buy EXPENSIVE, proprietary solutions from Crestron and others.

BASIC DESCRIPTION OF PRODUCTS

The Intellitouch system consists of a Controller (A large box containing circuit board, circuit breakers and relays) which controls pumps, heaters and other equipment including lighting and (I think) irrigation. Various accessories include a variety of wired/wireless controllers for use inside the house and at pool/spa side.

The Screenlogic interface includes a protocol adapter basically puts the Intellitouch controller onto your LAN. A small protocol adapter converts the native Intellitouch serial protocol to 802.3 (wired) ethernet. This can then be converted to wireless using 3rd party wired/wireless bridge product. Aps for the iPhone and for Windows allow pretty complete control of the pool/spa and other equipment.

THE BIG STUFF THAT MAKES ME WISH FOR A BETTER PRODUCT

1. No API's. Even though the protocol adapter puts the Intellitouch on the LAN, it is still a very stupid box communicating using a proprietary, encapsulated protocol. It does not expose a REST or SOAP API which would allow very simple integration with any home automation service. The only recommendation on the Pentair forum was to use an I-Link adapter. This adapter simply provides an RS-485 link to a computer for control. This is a terrible solution because it REQUIRES yet another computer to be up and active running the protocol stack. Compared with Smarthome INSTEON lighting and SimpleHomeNet irrigation products, which have published, open interfaces and protocols, the Pentair system is really infuriating to work with.

2. No Granular User Control. This is HUGE if you rent your property to others (or let your wife/kids control it). There is one and only one user interface. A clueless user could set the pool to 90 degrees and walk away, leaving you paying the gas bill. The only way to disable this is by setting a "lockout" password on the keypad. With the password in place nobody can turn on the landscape lights or spa! You can solve this by adding another controller with locked down functions (a 4 or 10 button controller) but these are UGLY and don't have room for labels. It would be SO MUCH EASIER if an "Admin" level password were added or a "User" screen with basic controls was provided. The iPhone interface DOES NOT SOLVE this problem since it exposes all functionality.

3. Pentair Support for Automation is not state-of-the-art (by a long shot). Automation support appears to be provided by one guy named Jimmy in North Carolina. When my protocol adapter malfunctioned I needed to go get it (200 mile round-trip drive to the vacation house), mail it to Jimmy to have it inspected/fixed, wait for return shipment, drive back to the vacation house (another 200 miles) to discover that firmware was outdated, schedule a Pentair authorized service guy to come out and do a firmware upgrade (no online upgrade available), drive back to the vacation house to meet him (total 600 miles and about 6 weeks later). Contrast that with a defective product from Smarthome - I gave them a credit card, they FedEx replacements to the property along with a prepaid return shipment label for the defective units. They arrived 2 days later, I downloaded the current firmware and was up and running right away. Pentair had no clue about how to do a cross-shipment, would not allow me to purchase a replacement (even at full retail) from their service organization, would not provide their own AUTHORIZED SERVICE REP with a unit for trouble-shooting and did not provide shipment tracking info.

So, we have plenty of Insteon devices in our home, many of which control outdoor fixtures (e.g. low voltage lighting, pool lights, water fountains, pool house lights, security floodlights, etc), but I've not come up with what I consider to be a foolproof way to control pool functions using Insteon. Yes, it would be possible to use a combination of Insteon devices like 220V outdoor controllers to switch on and off the pumps, and SimpleHomeNet 24V interface to switch valve actuators, etc, all via Insteon. The issue is finer control like polling the pool/spa/air temps to control the heater and solar heater, and also a way to control the speed of a multispeed pump like the 11018 Pentair Intelliflo. Our system is controlled by an ISY-99 Pro, and while the overall system is quite functional for what it does, I just don't think it would work so well to control the functions of the pool. The ISY-99 would be so busy polling for temp. values, and I can't think of a good way to pass ASCII values to an Intellicomm protocol converter from the ISY-99.

So, the need exists for a means to either a) bridge between Insteon and something like the Intellitouch or Easytouch, or b) have a system built ground up that would support one of the major HA protocols. Intermatic has a reasonably simple system (probably at the level of the Suntouch) to control a small number of pool functions, and this can interface with one of the HA protocols, but its quite limited. It would certainly be great to have a dedicated system that can interface with some of the more capable HA products beyond X10. Interestingly, about 10 or 15 years ago, several manufacturers marketed X10 based pool control systems. These had simple light X10 controllers for pool lights, etc. But, the X10 protocol can be very unreliable (esp. over long wiring distances associated with backyard circuits), and I bet this blocked further adoption of HA protocols by the major manufacturers. Instead, it made more sense to build their own automation systems that included basic HA for controlling things like outside lighting, etc. But, you aren't going to be controlling your interior lighting circuits with a Pentair Intellitouch.

Some daring folks have ventured into building their own pool automation systems using simple computers like Arduino or Basic Stamp modules. This is really for the computer/tech savvy, so this may be a way to go. I believe there was a fellow on here a couple of years ago who had developed software for Arduino modules that could act as a dedicated controller box, but that could interface with various HA protocols wirelessly using standard WiFi. I'm not sure what resulted of that, but it did look quite interesting. For me, the issue is that ultimately, this house will be sold and it would probably not be good to saddle the new owners with a pool control system that is unsupported. I do wish Pentair/Jandy/Hayward would simply develop the appropriate protocol converters to allow our HA systems to interface instead of trying to do all of the HA work on their own.